Family Perspective on Mental Illness

Join us for a great discussion about mental health problems in families. While it is always difficult, there is often a silver lining.

(Transcript available below)

Please subscribe to our show:

And we love written reviews!

About the not crazy podcast hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and public speaker living with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Insanity is an asshole and other observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast Not Crazy. She is the recipient of the National Alliance on Mental Illness' Above and Beyond award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has partnered with Gabe for over a decade to advocate mental health. She lives in Columbus, Ohio with her husband. enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, chooses the best and sends the other 11 back.

Computer generated transcript for "Mental illness of the family” episode

Editor's note:: Please note that this transcript was computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammatical errors. Many thanks.

Lisa: Y.You're listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband with bipolar disorder. Together we created the Mental Health Podcast for People Who Hate Mental Health Podcasts.

Gift: Welcome to this week's episode of Not Crazy podcast. I'm your host, Gabe Howard, and with me, as always, is the impressive Lisa Kiner.

Debbie: Yeah, I don't think I'm not Lisa.

Gift: Well who are you

Debbie: I'm Debbie, your little sister.

Gift: Oh my little sister is on the show you know we look for you a lot but where is Lisa?

Debbie: She left.

Gift: She's gone before and kept coming back. I think we'll be fine here. For all of our listeners, she only left for one episode. I promise she will be back next week. I wanted Debbie because as a longtime listener to the show my little sister and well, really know my family, but definitely my little sister and mom both get a big hit. And since my mom wasn't available, Debbie can host the Not Crazy podcast with me. Debbie, welcome.

Debbie: Thank you for having me I will do my best.

Gift: Now Lisa usually has a quote. Have you prepared a quote for the audience?

Debbie: Don't you eat yellow snow?

Gift: All right, Lisa is definitely trying harder.

Debbie: Well, maybe you would have given me a little advance notice?

Gift: Oh yeah, advance notice really isn't part of the process, we really like to put people in place and then just be like that, ha ha, gotcha.

Debbie: Yes, as your text showed this morning.

Gift: We are part of Gotcha, the Gotcha podcast media. We're fake podcasts. No,

Debbie: Impressive.

Gift: I was only joking. We are as real as can be. We can even say things like bullshit, but not the F-word. You know, now it goes on. Debbie, I wanted you here because we talk a lot about our families, Lisa and me. We see things simply through our experiences. But you have a unique perspective because you saw me grow up as my younger sister. Now Debbie is five and a half years younger. She is my little sister. I think that might be a bit overlooked. When I was 14 and was having a really difficult time, you would have been eight.

Debbie: So similar,

Gift: Does the math hold up?

Debbie: Don't let me do the math. Come on.

Gift: We all went to public school. We're not good at it. Education was not a priority in the Howard household in the early 1990s.

Gift: Debbie how was it? What do you remember about your big brother, Gabe? I know you've already talked about how you looked up at me. I was just your big brother. There was no concept of mental illness or bipolar disorder or even a problem. But you remember some less positive things from our childhood that had to do with me and our parents. Tell this story or one of the stories.

Debbie: As you said, I was very young and dedicated, my life was my best friend and I think I spent more time in her house than in our house. However, I remember a few incidents that, in hindsight, can only be traced back to an untreated bipolar. I know there was that time and it was when we lived on Karlstrasse, so I was in elementary school.

Gift: Yeah, that would get me into high school.

Debbie: And I can remember that you did something. You got in trouble for something, I don't know what it was, but I could hear you down in the basement and you were just a heartbreaking sob, scream. Like not angry screams but like a heartache like it's going to kill you or something when you're down. And.

Gift: Now my bedroom was in the basement, so

Debbie: Yes.

Gift: We should point out that mom and dad didn't take me to the basement. I was in the basement. My room was there.

Debbie: Yes,

Gift: Yes.

Debbie: Your room is down there. You were probably just told to go to your room for something, but I could hear you upstairs. I remember reaching out to mom and liking what's going on? Do you know what's wrong with Gabe? And she says it's none of your business. The story of my life is divided. We do not share anything that is not pleasant. So I was just told to go outside because I couldn't take the screams and screams anymore. But I honestly don't know what happened.

Gift: And I don't think anyone else will either. One of the things I remember from my point of view, of course, is that something would happen and that something that would happen would honestly always be uneventful. It would be stupid, you know, to have dessert if I shouldn't have gone into the little Debbie snacks. Oh, the horror, you know, talked back. It would always be something small. This would always end up in the same place where I felt down, abandoned, and alone. I think other people would just jump back. Other kids would just get caught, you know, time to move on and get better at it in the future. Other families I don't think have been through, but I've always been and, Debbie, I can't just put these memories into words when I'm just rocking back and forth and screaming. And I had the feeling that no one would ever love me again. And from mom and dad's point of view, they were just like that, well, that's a tantrum. In my view, my family died because, as I do not know, I was excommunicated from the family. And it would take hours for this to work or relax. And then we would all just join in as if nothing had ever happened. That's how I always remembered it. I was abandoned and alone, you know, screaming for four to five hours in the basement. Mom and Dad would ignore me. My mood would change at some point and then we would all pretend nothing had happened. How was it for you This cycle goes on over and over again so you can see it without anyone ever telling you why this happened?

Debbie: Well, you start to think it's normal, it's leave it to the beaver, we're not talking about something that's uncomfortable. We don't ventilate our dirty laundry to others. You know it is.

Gift: But we don't even vent it for ourselves

Debbie: Good yes.

Gift: It's really weird that I'm here. How, hey Gabe, can you discuss all the things we screwed up in your childhood live on the air on a podcast that tens of thousands of people have heard? No problem. But all the way back, Debbie would say, hey what's wrong with my big brother and mom and dad would be like, don't worry. We will not discuss it. That's a strange dichotomy, isn't it?

Debbie: I think it was more like you were in trouble. If you don't want to be in trouble too, you have your own business to deal with. This does not affect you.

Gift: Yes, but no one else behaves like that. If you got into trouble, you didn't go into your room and screamed and cried for six hours.

Debbie: No no. I might have cried, but that's normal.

Gift: Did billy do that? You are the baby, you are the youngest I have a middle brother. Did Billy ever act like this when he got into trouble?

Debbie: I remember a time when he got into trouble and mom beat him up with the notorious wooden paddle.

Gift: Yes, the Board of Education.

Debbie: And every time she started swinging he made that weird sound and it got her where she burst out laughing and she couldn't beat him because he jumped up like a cartoon character and made a weird sound. And she laughed too hard. I remember it. So you have to do that.

Gift: I'm the oldest, you're the youngest, there were three of us, and when I looked at the two of you, my younger siblings, you didn't have these issues with mom and dad. And as an adult, looking back, you both know when to shut up. I couldn't get out of the feedback loop. Every time I opened my mouth, Dad grounded me for another week and I kept going that long. Mom pointed out dad we are now in years. Gabe has been grounded for years. She could finally separate us. But, Debbie, it had to be awful to see. I mean, me, mom and dad, we struggled my entire childhood until I finally left home and I left home before I graduated from high school because arguing was so incredible and so pointless and so unproductive . Was really so unproductive that I had to leave. Why were you told that I'm away from home? Suddenly your older brother is gone and he's moving in with Grandma and Grandpa and now you and Billy are left behind. So, did mom and dad ever sit you down and say, hey, we got rid of Gabe?

Debbie: No, they do not have. It was just that Gabe was going to move in with Grandma and Grandpa, and I'm sure I asked why, but I have no recollection of an actual answer. It was just that Gabe would live with Grandma and Grandpa. I thought I didn't know this was an option. Grandma gives me spaghetti O & # 39; s.

Gift: Yeah i'm the favorite it's just an option for me Has this ever been brought up in the family?

Debbie: I do not believe that.

Gift: I was gone, did you wonder why?

Debbie: I mean I did, but you know I got your email address so we can keep in touch.

Gift: But that wouldn't be the case right away as I didn't get an email until my sophomore year.

Debbie: Trying to wonder if we wrote letters like physical letters, because that is exactly what people did in our old days.

Gift: In our old days? Wow wow

Debbie: Yes.

Gift: Gabe and Debbie are so old we remember when there was no internet.

Debbie: That's right. We are older than Google.

Gift: We are older than Google. Wow, wow, we're older than Yahoo!

Debbie: Yes.

Gift: Here's another interesting thing. Let's talk about this for a moment. So the great idea came to me, mom and dad, I stole mom and dad. Let's just open that up. I want to own that. I would go in dad's wallet, mama's purse. I would find out where they kept money. That was long ago. Back then there was more of a cash economy. So people have a lot more money with them than they do now. And I would steal the money and buy pizza with it. Basically, I stole money for food.

Debbie: In your defense, I remember a time when I looked into coat pockets and found.

Gift: But that was like a change

Debbie: Yes,

Gift: Have you ever walked in mommy's purse?

Debbie: No, no, no wallet out of bounds.

Gift: Do you ever go into daddy's wallet?

Debbie: No.

Gift: No, no, that was a

Debbie: No matter whose coat it was, I looked in coat pockets.

Gift: That was change. Thanks for trying to make mine. Yeah, it wasn't a good scam. Mom and Dad knew how much money they had in their wallets. And when you first did it, they were just like I thought I had more. But hey, maybe I stopped and picked up milk on the way. But at some point they set me up. I was caught. They knew I stole the money. Mom and Dad started locking their bedroom door so I couldn't steal the money anymore. OK no problem. This can be resolved by sliding your little sister through the main bathroom window and letting her unlock the bedroom door. You can steal any money you want and then back it up again. And if mom and dad are like, where does this money go? They think, well, it can't be stolen because we finally locked it in our bedroom. Nobody could get in. Well that worked perfectly. We were never caught. We admitted this years later as adults. Perfect plan. But here's the interesting thing. We did this together

Debbie: Oh yeah.

Gift: And we weren't caught. So mom and dad had no parenting to do. We were adults when this came out. But they still believe very much that this was an example of how I corrupted you. Why this?

Debbie: Because i was too young to know better

Gift: "Really?"

Debbie: Hey, when I was small enough to fit through a bathroom window, I was young.

Gift: First of all, you're tiny, I think you would fit through that window now.

Debbie: Well, maybe not now that I'm 30 pounds of pandemic weight.

Gift: Ok, before the pandemic, I think you would have fit through that window

Debbie: Perhaps.

Gift: I know you only have one child, Debbie, so this is difficult, but go ahead and pretend you have a second child and both of them together and break into your room and steal money. Do you just blame one kid and give the other a full passport, or are you mad at both of them?

Debbie: I would be mad at both of them, but I would probably be more angry with the older one just because they are older and should be a good example. Even if the younger was like that, hey let's do that, should the older be like that, no, that's wrong.

Gift: See what a mess this is.

Debbie: Yes,

Gift: See how hard it is to be me Not only did I have a terrible illness that no one noticed, but I was responsible for raising my siblings. My siblings were a mess because I was their example. And mom and dad are like, wow, I can't believe they had to see this. You know Debbie, I think you turned out pretty good. You're the only college graduate, 10 years in the military. You were only married once. I just mean You're welcome. You're welcome.

Debbie: Well, I've always looked up to you.

Gift: The example I gave you was clearly perfect.

Debbie: You know, you learn a lot from others, whether it comes down to what to do or not.

Gift: Impressive. Oh, I, I hate you so much now

Debbie: I'm so sorry. But it is true. I'm not saying that I looked at you and say, OK, I don't want that. No, that is not true. I actually always looked up to you. I look up to you to this day.

Gift: Well I appreciate that, but it's for what not to be done, isn't it?

Debbie: Well, no, but there are things you learn from others that you shouldn't do. It was one of the things when I was in the military, I had some bad leaders and I thought I was going to learn from this leader. I learn that if I become one, I don't want to do this. And I think that's all. You learn regardless of your surroundings.

Gift: So we've found that you're sticking to this idea that Gabe was kind of a mess as a kid and our family didn't handle it very well. Mom and Dad didn't talk about it. But then you grew up, I was diagnosed, and then our family really accepted it. This is the transition to the now adult Debbie. Be honest, before I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, did you understand any serious and persistent mental illness? Did you know the signs? Do you understand suicide? Would you have been a good lawyer for someone who was sick before I was diagnosed?

Debbie: No, because my only knowledge was Hollywood.

Gift: Yeah, and they do a tough job

Debbie: Oh yeah Hollywood, and when it comes to suicide my only thing is not to do it or you will go to hell.

Gift: Oh yeah, that's awesome.

Debbie: Catholic education, you know.

Gift: Yeah, yeah, there is a lot to unzip, but then I was diagnosed and it got personal. It wasn't just that nebulous concept of insanity and suicide. You stopped talking about it in the abstract. All of those words now applied to Gabe. You applied to your brother. You applied to someone you knew and loved and who had a personal relationship. Has this changed the way you have studied and learned mental health, mental illness, and suicide?

Debbie: Oh absolutely. For starters, when I first found out about your diagnosis and you sent me links, what do you want, read about and take this course. And I would do that. And I guess what is it It just doesn't make sense to me. And I've learned more about how I actually read your blogs, maybe because they are so raw and unfiltered and because there are certain things that you and I just don't talk about. I'll admit that I skipped some blogs because there are still some things I don't need to know when it comes to my big brother. Some stories that I know from listening to podcasts that I can't burn out of my head, but.

Gift: Yes. Hey listen, if it makes you feel better, the day mama told me you bought French lingerie and how expensive it was and when mama told me this, Debbie, tell the French lingerie story .

Debbie: Oh my god, so I was stationed in Germany. Friends came to visit and we decided to take an overnight trip to Paris because it was a train ride away. And while I was there I was like you know what I'm going to buy some nice French lingerie because I can. Because it just seemed like that was my picture of the French. Anyway.

Gift: So how much did you spend on this lingerie set?

Debbie: I don't even remember, but it was.

Gift: A terrible crowd

Debbie: It was way too much. Yes.

Gift: And so mom tells me this story about my little sister who goes to Paris and buys French lingerie, and she tells the story as, Oh, can you believe your sister paid so much and went to the shelf? And when mom finished I said, why is Debbie buying lingerie? And mom said, well me. And mom is grown up like your sister and she is a woman. I do not want to hear that. That's too much, not me, and we change the subject. Years later, poor Debbie listens to a podcast on hypersexuality and hears some of those stories. And she says why did I have to hear that? And when we talked about it, I said to Debbie, Well, there's the time you bought lingerie. And Debbie is how you think these are equivalent? And I kind of like it. I think the trauma could be the same. We'll be back in a minute after hearing from our sponsor.

announcer: Would you like to learn about psychology and mental health from experts in the field? Listen to the Psych Central Podcast hosted by Gabe Howard. visit PsychCentral.com/Show or subscribe to the Psych Central Podcast on your favorite podcast player.

Announcer: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com. Safe, convenient and affordable online advice. Our consultants are licensed, accredited professionals. Everything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions as well as chat and text with your therapist whenever you deem it necessary. A month of online therapy often costs less than a traditional face-to-face session. Go to BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counseling is right for you. BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral.

Gift: We're talking to my little sister, Debbie Wyatt, again about mental health. One of the things you told me is that with this knowledge you have really been able to help many of your students. Now the average onset of mental illness is between 16 and 24. So, Debbie, as a college professor, you agree with the average age of symptoms. And you've been very helpful to many of your students who honestly need guidance because there just isn't a lot of guidance.

Debbie: Yes, as a college professor, I teach a number of different classes and I also teach emergency medical procedures. And some of my classes have strict attendance guidelines. And in the past, when I started teaching so students could say, well, I had to miss these days, I just didn't feel good. And I like, oh, excuses, excuses I had the military mentality, the army mentality of you know, just do it, do what you have to do. Do not be late. It's kind of a hole that was difficult to negotiate. And most of all, you know, I have my own standards. If I could you could

Gift: Correct.

Debbie: However, this is not the case. Everyone is not the same. Not everyone tests the same. Not everyone learns the same. I mean, I learned that in college. You have auditory learners, kinesthetic learners, and visual learners. Some people can learn only one way, while others can learn all or a variety of ways. And I learned as I learned more about mental health and your life. Whenever students approached me and looked like this, yesterday I couldn't come to class as if they were saying, so I just couldn't get up, past me it would have been like you would have missed class. But now I want to talk to myself. Of course, if you don't talk to me, I can't help you. I cannot work with them if they are not in conversation with me. So I had a student in my current class who emailed me. It was like, I know I wasn't in class. I have some mental health problems. That was in the email. And can I still pass this class to graduate this year? Well the past may have been like this, no, there is nothing you can do. But now I know it is, you know what Especially during a pandemic, sometimes even me who have no mental illness. But I've been so scared since shutting down this year that I can understand it even more than just what I've learned from you and your influence. So I emailed him back. I really want to do what you can, you know what can I do to help? We have resources on campus. Send an email labeled, contact that person, that person, or if all else fails, you can qualify for a hardship retrospective withdrawal if a bad semester because of your mental health doesn't affect your grades. You shouldn't have to because you can't change that.

Gift: One of the things that many people with mental illness resist is that we don't learn anything about these things, we don't learn anything about the retroactive hardship case. People don't run to help us while we see our co-workers, they write and they say, you know, hey, I was in a car accident, I broke my leg, or I was diagnosed with something and some physical illness. And that really threw me through a loop. Or I've spent a lot of time on it, or even a loved one who was transferred to a hospice here. And we see that all these things and people come out of the wood to make their lives easier. And I strongly support that. I like that about the world. I don't know when we came so that the real world wouldn't offer second chances. This is nonsense. I watch sports all the time. There are always second chances. There are four disadvantages in football. That's four chances. Correct. The world doesn't give a second, that's not true. People are constantly filing for bankruptcy and living great lives. I just divorced and remarried people. This is a second chance. How did we get the idea that the world doesn't give a second chance? But if I put that aside for a moment, I'm firmly in favor of people with mental health problems because it's a real problem, just like diagnosing a physical health condition.

Gift: But we don't understand. And what happens, Debbie, of course, is that the problem is getting worse. We come to you and say we have a mental health problem. Can you help us? And you say no, this is the real world. Well, you are our instructor. We believe that what you are saying is true now, that the real world doesn't care about my condition and won't help me. Unfortunately, many people in your position have just told me that a vulnerable student is looking at a figure of authority like Professor Debbie. And we think we might as well not try to get a job. My professor said the world doesn't care about me. I might as well not try to graduate because my professor said the world doesn't care about me. Do you see the difference? And what do you think about it Because your students kind of look at you that way, you know, doughy, big-eyed and, well, stupid, and you're leading them in a much better direction. That will make sure they don't just sit at home and say a professor told me the real world isn't helping me, so I won't even try.

Debbie: You know, and unfortunately there are professors and teachers out there who in my opinion shouldn't even be in the teaching profession if they have that kind of mentality. I know exactly what you mean, and especially at the college level because in universities the people who teach a lot of classes, especially PhDs, are experts in that field, whatever it is, you know, psychology, physics, chemistry whatever, they are the experts. They do that. But they were never taught how to teach, how to work with students and their needs. And I know here at my university that we are working on it. Our president has been sending emails, the dean of students has just been sending emails. And I really think the silver lining of this pandemic is more people understanding that mental health is a serious matter and that it affects a lot of people. And we have to do our part to contribute to the health part, not the disease part. And if you put these strict guidelines like no, then I won't let you take this test. No, I'm not going to work on that with you. This does not help the student in learning. It doesn't help the student in life. It's important to work with them and do what you can to help them succeed. And I know that there are other trainers and professors who feel the same way. Unfortunately not all of them.

Gift: I obviously understand that this concept of the world must work for people with mental illness as well as for people without mental illness. I certainly wouldn't want to see a doctor because the only reason they got their medical license is because they kept claiming they had a mental illness, or rightly a mental illness. So they were passed on over and over again. I just want to take a second and talk about it for a moment because just like physical health problems, you can of course be prevented from doing the things you want to do. Mental health problems can prevent you from doing the things you want to do. How do you balance that? Because I know, Debbie, you don't want an EMT who just got a passport because they had bipolar disorder. I don't want and I don't want anyone who hears this to think, well, I can get anything I want just by pretending that I have bipolar disorder or that I am legitimately bipolar, just like

Debbie: It won't get what you want, it will be given the opportunity to learn to the best of its ability. So that's why we have resources here for students with disabilities, for example, you know, and this goes into more cognitive traits. But I once had a student who couldn't read a test question or understand what it said. She didn't do well on tests, but because she went to the Disabled Students Resource and signed up there, she got permission for someone to read her the questions because she could imagine them being read to her and her could understand. And that goes for a lot of things. I once had a student who enrolled with students with disability services due to a strict attendance policy. So they are not telling you exactly. You are just saying, please allow the student to have more absences than normal. And the student came to talk to me. Sometimes I just can't get up. You don't have to report me. I promise I will be here when I can. And I immediately think I'm there for you. Do you know what can we do to make sure you learn what you need to learn from this class? That's all it is It's about giving students the opportunity to learn with the best of resources.

Gift: There's a famous Einstein quote that I always butcher, and it basically says that if the intelligence test were to climb a tree, all fish would think they'd be stupid. And I think about it a lot because the way we design learning often holds for the greatest common denominator.

Debbie: Mm hmm,

Gift: Correct? We shape learning for everyone.

Debbie: You teach in the middle.

Gift: Yes, fine, but there has to be someone on the sidelines. There has to be someone who doesn't learn that way, who can still do absolutely incredible things when given the opportunity. I appreciate what you are saying because I know there are plenty of listeners out there who want to try college. They want to try to get a job. You want to try to do a lot of things. But so many people in their life have told them that it's not for them, it's not for them. You can't do it. The real world won't help you. There are no accommodations. Nobody is going to give you a second chance that there is all sorts of other stigmatization and discrimination. You are too emotional. You are too tearful. They need to be babysat and mocked and so on and so on. And I just feel so bad because at one point all of that applied to Gabe. Everything applied to Gabe Howard. And if I hadn't had other people to make up for it and say no, Gabe, that's not true, you have to get back on the horse. You have to try again. You have to start over and figure out where to fit. I would be what You're probably sitting on your couch right now. I mean, it's always the little sister who takes on the cheerful siblings in the end. But I've heard that a lot. And these voices are loud. Those voices are loud and you already feel like trash. What advice do you have to people who are listening and afraid to take this step because they are afraid to meet the people as you described them, the people who will be like that, look, I'm not helping you. If you can't, screw it up, you fail. How do you stand up for yourself? What can you do if you don't meet Debbie but the opposite of Debbie?

Debbie: I'm really glad you asked me because especially from a university perspective, I can tell if you have something going on, talk to your teacher, you know, at the start of the class, introduce yourself to let them know you really want to learn that you are there. Whatever you want to tell them, there is absolutely no need to tell them anything. But I find that I'm more willing to work with someone who will open a line of communication with me because if I hear absolutely nothing from a student and they don't send me a message, then it's I mean, I don't know what is going. I don't know how to help you. And I do my best to reach the students too. Difficult in the online environment, but if something is going on, speak to your teacher. Let them know. If you are in a university, look for students with disabilities. It will be called something like that. At least I would accept privately at all public universities. But I do not know. I don't work in a private institution.

Debbie: But look it up. You'd be surprised how helpful it can be for your college career because if you get exam anxiety for example, sit down, you get this time test, 30 minutes. Oh my gosh, I'll never get through this. And by the time you go through the mental block of dealing with a time limit of 30 minutes, ten minutes will have passed. So now you have a time limit of 20 minutes and that can be accounted for as they provide a low stimulus environment in which to conduct your tests, not in the classroom but in one of their facilities. They can provide an hour and a half with a little more time for the test because you learn and share your knowledge in the same way. It may take you a little more time to process it, deal with anxiety or something. But just talk to your teachers. For university-specific information, see the resource for students with disabilities. This does not necessarily mean that you have a disability. It just means that with certain accommodations you will learn better. That's all it really means.

Gift: I like the way you told people not to bother with words, you know, so often we think I'm not disabled, I have no disability. I fight all the time in the mental health advocacy where we are not trying to solve the problem but arguing about what to call it. Let's not get stuck by the name of things because once you get there you don't care what the name of the organization, group or department you went through to get where you want to be. Not to be taken away from college, Debbie, which is very, very important. But in jobs, careers, etc. go to the human resources department. Go to Human Resources, sit down and say, Hey, look, I need that extra place to stay. There are all kinds of reasonable accommodation laws. And nine out of ten times, your employer is keen to give you what you need to be productive. They don't care that you need something the other employees don't need if what they give you makes you more productive. At the end of the day, you are there to achieve something for her. If you have an open dialogue with them and this helps you, you know they are very good. Now we understand stigma. Discrimination is a very, very real thing, which is why I recommend going to these services, going to the College Department of Disability, going to the Human Resources department, bypassing your co-workers, supervisors, professors, etc., and starting the conversation over there. That way you have a lawyer and support. If you are comfortable and again it is a personal decision, then you can absolutely speak to your supervisor or professor. And hopefully everyone you talk to has a brother with bipolar disorder who really learned the ropes.

Debbie: This is helpful. I will not lie.

Gift: Debbie, you know these are tough questions when we talk about families. But do you think that my behavior traumatized you in some way? Do you ever look back on your childhood and think that was, that went through a lot with my brother? That was a lot.

Debbie: Not me. Of course, I see my childhood very differently than you see your childhood.

Gift: Yes my childhood was horrible

Debbie: Yes.

Gift: Like it's awful. You were a bright spot, you were good.

Debbie: We had a great relationship. You were my first word you

Gift: That's right.

Debbie: Got myself out of my cot every day.

Gift: I did. Drop them right on your head every morning.

Debbie: No, but we've always had a great relationship. Even the few times we bump heads, I mean, but that's exactly what siblings do.

Gift: Debbie, I'm glad it didn't affect you. I really am. Of course, it would be perfectly understandable if it were, and it happens a lot in many families, you know, siblings are left behind because all the resources are good, the troublemaker, the sick person. It's not an uncommon story for siblings to be honestly traumatized by it. I'm glad it didn't affect you, but I'm surprised. I would think seeing just some of these things would be problematic. Maybe I prepared you for the war. I dont know.

Debbie: You know, a kid's eyes, when you're the age I was in elementary school, this is your time for me as if everything is focused on me. You haven't gotten enough to start thinking about us.

Gift: My behavior was very confusing for mom and dad. Yes. It was just very confusing to her. And I'm really surprised it didn't affect you anymore. Do you think mom and dad could have handled it better if they had talked to you? And I know we're throwing them under the bus because they're not here to defend themselves, but they didn't tell you anything. I mean your brother just got up and left one day and they didn't tell you anything. It seems like it didn't affect you in any way. And I am very grateful for that. But it could be that something like this remains open. That could be a really big deal.

Debbie: This is our family, but they never talk about things that are uncomfortable or that could make people sad. They try to spare everyone's feelings. Whatever it is, someone is in the hospital. Don't tell Gabe because he's in Ohio. He can't go anyway. He doesn't have to know. Debbie will only say or not say that she is in Germany, that Gabe was hospitalized for committing suicide. Let's not tell She's not there. You don't have to know. You know, I wish they had the conversation because maybe I would have been cleared up earlier.

Gift: Maybe it could have helped.

Debbie: Yeah, maybe I don't know, but because we had a special relationship I don't know, I feel like I wish they had more of those difficult conversations with us. Fortunately, I was still fine for the most part.

Gift: Eh

Debbie: Yes i will keep it. Pretty good.

Gift: You know Debbie you got great and people listen to the show and me, Debbie, I talk about my family on the show all the time. And it's fun to hear you say my family doesn't talk about anything. We don't want to do anyone because you are 100% right. Everything you said is true. But when I came up to them and thought, hey, I want to share all family secrets publicly, they like it, do it. And I thought, OK, we might be ashamed. And they said we don't want other families to have the same problems as us. We are, strangely enough, not shy people. You know, mom breaks out a singing opera in the middle of a department store like it's nothing. I've only had public fights that nobody cares about. We are loud people. But I'm really glad you have to come here because I think sometimes people think that all I do with my family is that we just fight, we just fight. And we came up with all these clever ways to avoid fighting, but actually everything is just passive aggressive and we ignore the elephant in the room. And while that's true, that's how we behaved as kids, let's talk about our adult lives for a minute. I don't think we ignore elephants in the room anymore. I think we have matured beyond that as a family. And while certainly sometimes, you know mom like, well, grandma got sick last night but I called you this morning so you weren't worried. Ok ok But before that I would have found out days later.

Debbie: When she was better.

Gift: Yes, there is a little more, but I think most of the time we pull the patch off a lot faster. Do you think we have matured as a family compared to how we behaved when we were younger?

Debbie: One hundred percent. I mean, mom will tell me something for who I am, did you already say Gabe? Yes, he's either he's my next call or I called him first. It's okay, don't hide it.

Gift: Yeah, I'm really glad you said that, don't hide it, you're right, we found out this is problematic and we say things like don't hide, don't sugarcoat, let's get out of the way. I think all families should do this. Glad you came to let people know we are having the tough talks. We just don't have them during Thanksgiving dinner.

Debbie: Correct.

Gift: This is noodle time.

Debbie: Pasta.

Gift: This is noodle time. Debbie, I love you so much.

Debbie: I love you too.

Gift: I am glad you got on the show. How did it feel to be Lisa? Man I wish this was a video podcast that you gave me. I should have just taken a picture. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for listening to this week's episode of Not Crazy podcast. Special thanks to my sister for the pinch of Lisa, which I promise to be back next week. My name is Gabe Howard. I am the author of Insanity is an asshole and other observationswhich of course is available on Amazon.com. But if you want to get it cheaper, if you want me to sign it and you want Not Crazy Podcast Swag then you just have to go gabehoward.com and buy it right there. It's a great Christmas present. I'll see you all next Tuesday.

Announcer: You've heard from Psych Central's Not Crazy Podcast. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. The official website of Not Crazy is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe go to gabehoward.com. Do you want to see Gabe and me in person? Not Crazy travels well. Let's record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details.

On the subject of matching items