Podcast: Grieving and Radical Honesty

Is there a right way to grieve? What if you lose an estranged family member with whom you have unresolved differences? On today's show, Lisa talks about the death of her grandfather, whom she was not close to, and how she processed it mentally and emotionally.

Take a closer look with us at the process of grief and how there is no way to deal with death.

(Transcript available below)

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About the not crazy podcast hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and public speaker living with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Insanity is an asshole and other observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast Not Crazy. She is the recipient of the National Alliance on Mental Illness' Above and Beyond award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has partnered with Gabe for over a decade to advocate mental health. She lives in Columbus, Ohio with her husband. enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, chooses the best and sends the other 11 back.

Computer generated transcript for “Grief and radical honesty” episode

Editor's note:: Please note that this transcript was computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammatical errors. Thank you.

Lisa: Y.You're listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband with bipolar disorder. Together we created the Mental Health Podcast for People Who Hate Mental Health Podcasts.

Gift: Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Not Crazy podcast. I am your host, Gabe Howard. And with me, as always, is Lisa Kiner.

Lisa: Hey everyone, today we're going to think about how Mitch Albom said that death ends a life, not a relationship.

Gift: Lisa, I want to offer you my condolences on the loss of your grandfather. How are you and your family

Lisa: We're fine, thanks for asking. Are you sarcastic

Gift: I am not being sarcastic because.

Lisa: OK

Gift: I know you and your grandfather didn't get along. I think the audience is probably like, why?

Lisa: We didn't get along, we just didn't really have a good relationship.

Gift: And that leads us to our show theme, right? And that also leads us directly to your offer. We always have the idea that this death is final, right? Death is final

Lisa: Death is final.

Gift: But it is not. Because your memory lives on, your people who knew you live on. For example, you had unresolved problems with your grandfather. They had unresolved feelings whether they were good, bad, positive, negative. You are unsolved. They didn't just stop. His memory didn't just end. For example, even though your grandfather died, we're talking about him now. That is exactly the definition of not final.

Lisa: Immortality via podcast.

Gift: Oh well. It or I mean why do people talk about history? When death is final? We should never have to think about the story, because after all, all the people who did it are dead. So it has consequences. Correct?

Lisa: Right, I would agree with that.

Gift: So death is not final. This is my point.

Lisa: Well, the point I'm making is that my grandfather was 92 years old. He had walked a lot longer than average. Second, we weren't close. We were never close. So when you say, oh, I know you are in trouble. No, I do not think so. I think I had more. I know that sounds cold. I think I have more apathy than anything. I mean, 92 year old people die. That's the way it is. I know it makes me sound nasty.

Gift: I don't think it makes you sound bad, me, it's your truth, is it? It's just not a thing that you hear very often.

Lisa: You can't say that out loud because people get really angry.

Gift: It's interesting to me, I firmly believe that everyone grieves in their own way, and I don't like it when someone has a loved one who is dying, be it a spouse, child, father, or even friend. And everyone judges how that person reacts to it. First and foremost, that's how they react in public. You have no idea. Maybe they act stereotypically once the door is closed. Correct? I mean, we only judge everyone by what we see in public, but we compare it to how we behave in private.

Lisa: That's a good point, I hadn't thought about it, but I just keep thinking one of the reasons people, police like you, grieve is because they see it as disrespectful to the dead. The time to respect her was while she was alive.

Gift: Well, not only is it time to respect them while they are alive, but I will consider this for a moment, I will use myself as an example. I died now, Lisa.

Lisa: OK

Gift: Now I am assuming that you are sad about this because I am not 92. I want to be

Lisa: Ok, again I realize that this makes me sound like the ice queen. Everyone thinks it's bad. He was 92 years old, he had a career, he had a family, he lived his life. It was his time.

Gift: You are focusing on the completely wrong point. The point I make is that I'm dead now, right?

Lisa: Ok ok sorry. Go back to the dead Gabe thing, got it.

Gift: Yeah, I don't know, it can be said that Lisa feels very strongly that she is doing something wrong because she keeps defending herself in the middle of a very obvious joke.

Lisa: No, I don't feel no, I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong. I realize that I get a lot of criticism for this attitude.

Gift: And the reason you said you feel like you are getting criticism is because people feel like you don't respect the person who passed away, yes or no?

Lisa: It's not a yes or no question.

Gift: Yes, it's a yes or no question. Do you feel that this is why people criticize the way you grieve? Because you feel that your grief is showing respect or love or something for the person who died? Yes or no?

Lisa: Yeah, I think it's a big part of it, but not all of it.

Gift: OK, now let's go back to my example. I'm dead now, ok? Correct. I died and Lisa, you will be sad about it, yes or no?

Lisa: Yes.

Gift: Let's say someone criticizes how sad you are about it. You decide Lisa is not grieving appropriately and showing emotion no matter what word you want to put there. They are up to Lisa and upset with her for feeling that it is disrespectful to me, the person who died. You follow so far.

Lisa: Yes.

Gift: I want to point out that if I die, Lisa will deal with it properly because Lisa is my best friend. I want her to come through my death. And the last thing I want is for people around her to jump on her and tell her that what she's doing is wrong. She is busy enough, I mean, literally the greatest person she has ever known in the history of time.

Lisa: The most essential influence, yes, far above all others.

Gift: Just died and it

Lisa: Yes you are my muse

Gift: I make children because death is one of those things that, if you don't add a joke every now and then, are really, really hard for people to understand. But I only think about the people who died in my life. And I can only imagine that if people were mean to me, talking about a judgment or a judgment or whatever you want to use, people wouldn't feel very good about themselves. These are people who have literally loved me all of their lives. But more importantly, Lisa, I just think it's your choice. How you deal with it is a very personal choice. And I don't think it affects anyone else.

Lisa: Well, people are judgmental and curious.

Gift: Yes, people are judgmental and curious, but let's assume the best of intentions. They said you feel like they are doing it to defend the deceased person. In a way, you appreciate that, don't you? Because the person

Lisa: No.

Gift: Whoever died is also in your circle. Don't you want them to have people standing up for them?

Lisa: No, because they are dead they do not know the difference. Where was all that love and respect and getting up etc where the person lived? You're gone now, hardly bothering what happens afterwards. I think it has a huge amount of judgment and curiosity because people are constantly grieving with the police. Everyone feels like they should feel a certain way. You should behave in a certain way. I dont know. They feel uncomfortable when you don't and people don't feel like telling you to your face that you are wrong about the way you grieve all kinds of relationships.

Gift: I'm glad you said that because I want people to hear that because death is hard enough and we all mourn it and mourn it in our own way and when people follow you and tell you that you You're wrong, it's just It's very bad for your sanity. You are not well, are you? Someone you knew, someone you had an existing relationship with, passed away. And it doesn't matter if this is a co-worker or literally your closest friend, beloved parent, grandparent, etc. Death has a reaction. It has a ripple effect. Have you ever worked anywhere where an employee died? They only knew her at work. It hit you right? It had a feeling in your chest. You didn't just say he wasn't my family. Correct?

Lisa: Well, there is an element of your own mortality and discomfort.

Gift: You come out so cold Lisa

Lisa: I know.

Gift: I just said that someone you know died and you only did it about yourself. You are not that cold as a person.

Lisa: It's my podcast.

Gift: No, Sincerely yours. I know you are uncomfortable and now you are. What's this? You cackle. You try

Lisa: Hackles,

Gift: Be very defensive. But

Lisa: Hackles.

Gift: I mean, I don't know any words, but no, sincerely, I just said that a co-worker you worked with every day died. And that feels very different than when, for example, your mother or father, your grandparents or your child or your spouse passed away.

Lisa: Correct.

Gift: And your answer to that is, oh yeah, I don't care that they're dead. It reminds me that I'm going to die. You are not that cold as a person.

Lisa: Why do you interpret it that way? They ask me why someone is feeling uncomfortable or unhappy. Don't you think this is part of it?

Gift: I think that's a component, just me

Lisa: Don't you think that you are uncomfortable with the concept of death or the afterlife, or that you are uncomfortable with your own mortality or the idea that no one wants to die? We all want to live forever and we all think we will live forever. Don't you think that's part of that feeling you have when that person has passed away? Don't you think that's part of that feeling?

Gift: I think that's part of that feeling, and as an example, you thought of it and there's nothing wrong with that.

Lisa: I don't know, you seem pretty judicial and tell me something is wrong with that?

Gift: No, I didn't tell you there was something wrong with that. I was surprised that this is the first place you went. I know you very well, Lisa, and I don't think that's the first thing you think. I've seen you get into traffic and risk your own life to save other people. I've seen you sit with people who are in danger or dying or in trouble. I once watched you spend 30 hours giving back a stray dog ​​to someone. And I refuse to believe that this person's makeup honestly feels in their heart that when someone dies, it's just a reminder that they are going to die and they could give a rat ass that they are dead. I wonder is this a defense mechanism on your part? Is it an Oh, I'm not going to focus on the person who is dead because that's final and over so I can get around it that way. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because I think a lot of people do this and a lot of people get unnecessary shit when it's just a defense mechanism and they are wonderful people. I want to be clear Lisa. You are a wonderful person and I am not criticizing you in any way. But you have to admit it sounds very cold when I say, hey, an employee dies, you think, yes, I don't care. It just reminds me of my own immortality or mortality

Lisa: But see, you're adding.

Gift: My own mortality.

Lisa: However, you add, I didn't say, oh, I don't care, I said that's part of your discomfort. Why does it have to be all or nothing? What about that black or white thinking?

Gift: For example, because that's how people think about death, you just said that death is final, absolutely the end. What about your black and white thinking?

Lisa: Death is final.

Gift: Oh, death is very much not final.

Lisa: Don't go there, don't go there

Gift: So let's talk about it for a moment.

Lisa: Let us. Let's discuss the existential level, gift.

Gift: No, no, no, let's actually be fine, yes, one of the things that I think makes people stumble when they mourn and mourn is the idea that death is final. I don't think death is final. I think death is final in that there is nothing more you can do to influence the future because you are no longer part of it. However, I believe that the past affects the future a lot, and the people in my life who have died still affect me because of things they did when they were alive. You just can't clarify or contribute anymore. I think part of the grieving process is realizing that their memories still live on, their lessons still live on. You keep saying that death is final. I don't think death is final as we still remember and respond to things that are ours

Lisa: OK yes.

Gift: Loved ones or people we made

Lisa: But but you mix. They mix things up. When most people say death is final, they are indicating an almost religious belief. They talk about their belief in the afterlife. And you're talking about something else.

Gift: Religion does not believe that death is final.

Lisa: That's exactly my point. When you sit there and say death is not the end, you realize that almost everyone interprets this as an expression of religious belief.

Gift: That's my point, everyone interprets it differently, but that interpretation seems to be based on the person they are talking to because you didn't grieve properly, you didn't respond properly. You don't deal with it like me. And I'm trying to explain that we all see it very differently. Religious people see it differently than atheists. Atheists see it differently from religious people. And even religions cannot decide. You know, some people go to heaven, some people go into nirvana. We have a limbo in the religion I grew up in. It's all very different and very personal. And I think that this type of judgment, this type of assumption that everyone is going to deal with it right away. I just think it affects the mental health of people who go through almost more grief than grief.

Lisa: Yes, I would agree with that. People are very judicial and curious, and people are naturally uncomfortable with death. When people don't know what to say, they either say nothing or they say stupid, stupid, unhelpful stuff.

Gift: This is very interesting. As you recall, at the beginning of the show I offered my condolences on the loss of your grandfather and you said very sharply: are you sarcastic? Now, I.

Lisa: Well, because you know me if you were a stranger on the street who said, Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm not an idiot, I understand social norms, the answer I would give is Oh thank you very much. Yes. And then you say something like, well, it was his time or, well, we all miss him very much. Oh, he was such a good man. Whatever the correct answer to a stranger who says, "Oh, thank you." But you happen to know me and you happen to know that I really didn't have a great relationship with my grandfather. When you say so, it seems to me that you are being sarcastic because you happen to know the relationship I had with this person.

Gift: Well, your relationship with your grandfather was strained for several reasons. One of those reasons was that your grandfather was an alcoholic.

Lisa: Yes. I don't think it's fair to classify it as tense as tense implies that there is so much activity on both ends. I would say that again, more of an apathetic thing. I really didn't have a great relationship with my grandfather.

Gift: You spent every vacation with him

Lisa: Well, yes, but in the company of another family. It wasn't just him.

Gift: You pretend you haven't seen him in years.

Lisa: No, no, I've seen him all along.

Gift: I agree.

Lisa: But it's not like there are meetings outside of the family where there are tons of other people that we know we haven't called on the phone or written letters one by one or something.

Gift: They are Facebook friends.

Lisa: Oddly enough, he was the biggest social media user. He was the first person I ever met who was on Twitter. I do not know why. I don't know what was wrong with him and social media. Whatever.

Gift: Lisa, I don't want to get into a semantic argument with you, whether you call it tense, whether you call it apathetic, whether you call it, you just didn't care. The words are really irrelevant. The fact is, your relationship with your grandfather was not good. And now that he's died, it affects how you move forward, how you will grieve, how you react, how sad you are. And I think the audience would like to know, OK, well what has this man done to you that you don't like him?

Lisa: Nothing, and I didn't particularly like him. He was an alcoholic, and he and my mother certainly had a strained relationship. Absolutely. And of course that came down to us. I think when most people think of grandparents, it's because of the bond you made with your grandparents as children. All the comic versions of the grandparents with the love and the hugs and the candy and the gifts and the visit to grandma and grandpa. And we didn't really have much contact with my mom's parents when we were kids because he was an alcoholic and mom didn't want him to be with us when he was drunk and he was always drunk. I think that's probably one of the reasons I have such an apathetic thing because I didn't really have the grandparents thing that was related to my mom's parents. Now I had plenty of that with my father's parents. No problem. I had a lot of grandparents. I didn't lack grandparents. But if you don't form that bond in your childhood, it's not like you suddenly do when you are 30

Gift: Lisa, do members of your own family give you shit for how you react to your grandfather's death?

Lisa: No because I'm not an idiot and I can absolutely monitor it and most of them don't listen to this podcast so I should be fine.

Gift: When you say police, do you mean that you are lying to them and pretending to be sad?

Lisa: I wouldn't classify it as a lie, but yeah I'll definitely go, oh yeah, that's so sad. Yeah, yeah, I don't really feel that way, but I'm also not happy that the person is dead or anything. I just don't have particularly strong feelings for it.

Gift: I get the whole concept, just because you don't want someone to eat at your table doesn't mean you want them to starve.

Lisa: Right right.

Gift: And I understand that you weren't rooted for something bad to happen

Lisa: No.

Gift: To him. Only his life goes on. Not much has changed for you.

Lisa: Yes, almost nothing has changed for me.

Gift: Do you feel bad about it?

Lisa: Just because this has naturally had an impact on my mother and her sisters, it also affects other members who are important to me, who I love, and who I have long-lasting relationships with. But as for him, yeah you know whatever. There were many other 92 year old men who died that day. I'm also not particularly excited about any of them.

Gift: Lisa, in some ways you are one of the most sane people I know. You have excellent limits. You are really good at running your family. I look up to you this way.

Lisa: Partly this is just a human function, you know, but yeah

Gift: Yes but

Lisa: I am sane than you are.

Gift: But we'll talk later.

Lisa: Anyway, low bar.

Gift: But a lot of people feel very bad about it. When people show up and criticize the way they are grieving, they don't have this devil to care about the carefree demeanor you have. It affects them a lot. And they feel like bad people for it. How did you get to this point? Just don't care what other people think? And is that like a skill that you developed?

Lisa: Is this your first day Oh for god's sake

Gift: No I am serious. A lot of people would feel very, very bad. People constantly feel that they are not grieving properly. And people criticize them. And that makes it worse. And you're just like that, oh, just ignore it, which literally means losing weight. Just cheer up, just make more money.

Lisa: I know.

Gift: Anyone hearing this might want to be you, but they don't know how to be you. And every time I ask you a direct question, how can people handle this in their own life, when they are going through this and feeling this way, your answer seems to be, well, stop doing this.

Lisa: Unfortunately, I don't have a better answer. I don't know, maybe part of it is just an inherent personality. In general, I don't really care what other people think. I certainly don't care as much as you do.

Gift: Well, nobody can care about it as much as I do, I have an anxiety disorder, paranoia, I care what everyone thinks all the time, always. In fact, I can say that somewhere in the world someone who has never met me thinks something negative and is now ruining my whole day.

Lisa: That's true, actually it's very sad.

Gift: It's very sad, but Lisa, honestly, the people who hear this feel bad about not reacting right. What advice do you have for them to move forward?

Lisa: The same advice I have for everyone if someone tells you you are doing something wrong. You need to analyze this. Are you doing something wrong. If the answer is no, who cares? You don't have to listen to this person telling you this. You know in your heart that you are good. You don't have to listen to this person. Stop listening to them. But if you are in your heart and think I am doing something wrong, then change your behavior. So when people say you make me guilty, OK, no, you can't make anyone feel anything. If you feel guilty, it's because you know you did something wrong. If you haven't done anything wrong, you can just fire that person.

Gift: So what you are saying is that you want you to do a chain analysis and rate it. They'd say, OK, that's how I feel. That's what the person says. And you'd back it up and see if they intersect in any way.

Lisa: Right, and if it doesn't, you can ignore them.

Gift: Lisa, I know that in your particular case with your grandfather, the closest members of your family, for example, your mother is apathetic like you, but

Lisa: I don't think that's fair.

Gift: You said you and your mother had the same reaction to it.

Lisa: I have never said that. I wouldn't say my mom is apathetic about this, if for no other reason than caring about her sisters' reaction.

Gift: Did you tell your mom how you felt about it, or do you pretend you had deeper investments to save your mom's feelings?

Lisa: No, I don't have to pretend for them. You won't be offended.

Gift: Ok, but what if this offended your mom?

Lisa: Then I would pretend.

Gift: Would you pretend this is the best policy? I don't think there's a wrong answer here, but of course each answer has advantages and disadvantages.

Lisa: Well, there are two sides, there is the impact on everyone else and then there is the benefit to you. If you pretend you have a deeper emotional investment than you, other people might feel better. It doesn't make her so sad. You don't have to worry about it. And if these are the people you care about and who have that ability, why not? Someone you care about just died. They don't want them to have to take care of you. Why wouldn't you if you could? And as for the benefit to you, you don't need to listen to criticism. So it's win win.

Gift: Of course, the reason I don't think it's a win is because the less you tell those closest to you, the less they know you. If you pretend that you care that way, it means that your mom should reasonably assume you care, and therefore may take steps to make you feel better. Because she takes care of you, her daughter, and now she uses emotional energy where none is needed because you gave her misinformation. But of course, if you give her the right information, you also run the risk that she will expand her energies to get you to do something you don't want to do. How does this work? I mean what's yours, what are your general thoughts on this?

Lisa: I think this is part of the social contract and there is a pros and cons for every interaction. They talk about pretending it's a negative thing. You never pretended to care about something that someone else cares about that you don't?

Gift: I do it all the time, but I have a level. I never pretend to care about something that is not important to me.

Lisa: Yes you do.

Gift: That is not true. Could you tell me that I pretended to take care of something for you and don't say that you would go to musical theater with me? I don't pretend to care. I tell you that I don't like musical theater, but I will definitely accompany you because you are my best friend.

Lisa: Well that's the equivalent.

Gift: Well, it's not like that. You're not saying I don't care that grandpa died, but I'll pretend I care about your benefit. They actually pretend to take care of it. You convince people that you care.

Lisa: No, you are completely wrong. This corresponds to when you tell me all about your new backsplash. Yes, I really am not invested in your new backsplash. I don't care about your backsplash. Your backsplash is not interesting to me, but to you. And I know this is important to you and you want me to say, oh, that's nice and admire it, etc. The benefit I'm getting back is just like you said, you don't want to see this musical, but it makes me happy. So this is a good deal for you. You can sit there and whatever and because it makes your friend happy. It makes you happy when I ask you about your backsplash, even though I would never worry about that backsplash or any backsplash again if you died tomorrow. What I make of it is happiness or joy or whatever it gives you. So that's the same. And we all do that all the time. When people come up to you and talk to you about boring subjects that you don't care about, but you can say they care deeply about them and it makes them happy, or at least makes them more comfortable, when you pretend would you take care of it. It's exactly the same. It is no different just because you apply it to death.

Gift: I don't think these are analog at all.

Lisa: Why?

Gift: First off, I think you care about my backsplash because you know it matters to me and me

Lisa: I agree,

Gift: They care about things that matter to me.

Lisa: Yes, exactly, and that person matters to the person you are speaking to, even if they don't matter to me, they matter to them.

Gift: But you pretend to be grieving, you weren't pretending to be excited for my backsplash, you just listened politely and you gave me your honest opinion on what you thought about it in my kitchen. You didn't pose with a selfie. You didn't take any samples home with you. You didn't tell me to do tours. You didn't tell me I should. Oh dear God. That's the biggest backsplash

Lisa: There are levels, there are levels, and I have certainly done such things in the past for things that I don't care about on your behalf, and you have them to me too.

Gift: I don't think that's true. I never lied to you.

Lisa: So why are you Lying has this inherent negative connotation.

Gift: I've never faked for you before

Lisa: Yes you have

Gift: When.

Lisa: "Really?" I'm getting new floors. How many times have we talked about this soil? Are you telling me that you care about my flooring?

Gift: Yes.

Lisa: Of course you don't care. You do not care. It won't be on your feet. What do you care You care because you know I care, because you are polite and give me this opportunity.

Gift: Again, I just don't think these are the same.

Lisa: I think that's exactly the same thing, I don't understand why you don't think that's the same thing, and honestly I don't even know I can explain because it's so obvious to me that this is it Exactly the same thing I can't even tell you

Gift: The reason it's not analog is because grandpa is both yours and your mom's. The floor is yours only. That alone doesn't make it analog. You'd have to find something that should theoretically be equally important to both of us.

Lisa: No, why would you assume that my mother and I, and besides, why should you use the word, should look after this person equally?

Gift: I said theoretically that should take care of that as well.

Lisa: But why in theory? Why at all, why is that so?

Gift: Otherwise you wouldn't be doing anything wrong. When it is clear that you should care less about your dead loved one than about another person, there is no reason to tell you that you are mourning wrongly. This person couldn't possibly understand.

Lisa: No,

Gift: Because there are two separate relationships.

Lisa: Clearly, everyone expects you to grieve more for a spouse, child, or parent than for a second cousin.

Gift: I totally disagree, I think they expect you to grieve differently. I don't think it's more or less any different, and once again your example is about something I don't own. I don't live in your house. As you said. I don't even go on your floor. It's well understood. Why don't we talk about something we buy together? Why don't we talk about the logo for our podcast?

Lisa: OK.

Gift: What if you found out that I lied to you about this logo where I convinced you that I love the logo and that it is a great logo, and you later found out that I was just telling you what You want to hear. I hate that logo. Wouldn't that piss you off?

Lisa: But

Gift: They would be like we designed it together.

Lisa: Do you hate the logo or are you just?

Gift: No, no, no, I love the logo, the logo is awesome.

Lisa: No, no, not the actual logo, it's an analogy, Gabe. But do you hate the logo or don't you really give a f ** k, you just don't care that much about the logo. But you can tell that I have invested heavily in the logo. So you will be spending your time and effort on it because

Gift: Right, and then what I would say

Lisa: And by the way, do you think that this could actually have happened to our actual logo.

Gift: What happened to the actual logo is you told me you don't care and I could choose.

Lisa: Correct.

Gift: You didn't lie to me. In her opinion, you should have pretended that you were just as excited about the logo as I was. But you didn't do that. You told me you don't care I could choose. Correct. So not a lie.

Lisa: Every situation is different.

Gift: I still showed you and you still watched it etc, but you didn't convince me that you had the same level of excitement or love for this logo as I did, to spare my feelings.

Lisa: But in your opinion, when you said to me, oh, look, here are a couple of different versions of the logo. What do you think? Since I am not sharing, I should have said that I will not care. I don't care. Take this from my website. No of course not.

Gift: No, What you said is entirely up to you. That is what you have said. I don't think that when your mom says you know I mourn your grandfather, you should say I don't care. Remove his name from existence.

Lisa: I agree.

Gift: Get him out of my sight.

Lisa: Not only are these two things, there are many options here, all on different levels.

Gift: We'll be back in a minute after a word from our sponsor.

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Lisa: And we're back with more distress crazy.

Gift: I just don't understand why you consider politeness to be okay to lie.

Lisa: Why?

Gift: If your mother wants to talk about your grandfather and you listen, it is certainly not the same as convincing your mother that you feel exactly how she feels.

Lisa: But I don't do that, I can't convince anyone in my family that I care exactly how they do it

Gift: So you're letting your family know that you don't care.

Lisa: See, but that's my point. Why do you think there are only two options?

Gift: What's the third choice?

Lisa: To be like that, oh, huh Yes / Yes. Oh, oh, that's sad. Yes he is gone. Yes. Make that.

Gift: When you know for sure that they are gathering, then you will agree with them.

Lisa: But.

Gift: Silence implies consent. You said that on this show.

Lisa: Ok what should i do? For example, my cousins ​​had a much closer relationship with him than I did. You mourn him. You have these fond memories of childhood with grandpa. Correct. When my cousins ​​start to say, oh that's so sad of grandpa. I miss him so much. You know, we've been talking all the time and now I can't talk to him anymore. And I'm just so sad about that. Yes, I haven't spoken to him like one on one in years. Should I say to her you know I don't care? I never called him for advice on home remodeling. Why are you even mentioning that around me?

Gift: Ok but what?

Lisa: What should I do?

Gift: Two things, one, I don't know why you have to tell the truth so badly, you

Lisa: I agree.

Gift: Seems to be thinking no stop it They seem to think that the truth can only be delivered in an evil way. What would I make of each example you used? Their example is that the truth is as mean as it is humanly possible. In order to

Lisa: So if.

Gift: Using your analogy, when the doctor was telling the truth about your grandfather's death, he should have been like he was dead. He's just dead. Dead, just dead. He never comes back. He's dead. I mean, he's telling

Lisa: No,

Gift: The truth. So he has to be cruel and mean.

Lisa: Using your analogy, I'm supposed to say something like I'm not interested in this conversation. Let's talk about something else.

Gift: No, I'm not saying that at all. I didn't say that at all.

Lisa: Ok, so what can I say otherwise than. Yes / Yes. It's so sad that he's gone. What can I say?

Gift: This whole thing started because I specifically said if you are okay with someone like this, there is some connection that you miss with him and maybe you are okay with it, like with your cousins ​​or aunts or friends or co-workers etc. . But how's it going? And that's a specific question that I asked. The specific question I asked is, what do you do if you want to tell someone the truth but you know it is going to hurt them? What's the best way to tell them this when it comes to grief? And your answer was a lie anyway. There's never a reason to tell the truth. And that bothers me. I do not agree.

Lisa: I don't think I am saying that.

Gift: Ok, then answer exactly this question, your mother mourns her father, your grandfather, you are apathetic. You want to tell your mother that you are apathetic, but you don't want to hurt her. How you do that?

Lisa: There are two points, don't interrupt me. Number one, why do I have to tell her that I'm apathetic?

Gift: That's not the question I asked. This is

Lisa: No i say

Gift: The answer to the question cannot be why I have to answer the question.

Lisa: I told you not to interrupt and you should interrupt.

Gift: I understand, but it is you

Lisa: The question is

Gift: Politicians on the issue. Just answer the question.

Lisa: You do not do that know what else i'll say, give me a sec. In order to You don't necessarily have to tell her that you are apathetic. That is not a requirement. You can just leave that out if you want. And number two, you say something like, oh, you know, I wasn't as close to him as you or, you know, he really wasn't as part of my life as he was yours. Or you say something I have done a lot of times as you know it wasn't a part of my life that much but I can see how upset you are. I am so sorry this happened to you. I'm so sorry for how you feel or depending on how close you are to someone you know, personally I am not that affected by his death, but I worry on your behalf. You can say something like that.

Gift: How do you deal with this person shooting back? What do you mean that you don't care? I thought you were close.

Lisa: What are they, idiots? Of course we weren't close. Who doesn't know?

Gift: Once again we offer advice to different families, and I don't think it is very fair for you to categorize the other way families deal with death as idiots. It's very unwelcoming.

Lisa: No, that's not what I say, what I say, you have the whole thing about it, well, that you are not making authentic connections.

Gift: I don't know why you are mocking me. Authentic connections are important.

Lisa: Every family member will know that I was not close to this person because they are not blind. I think when a family member said, oh my gosh, why are you acting like this? I thought you were close At this point you could probably just say no. Actually, we weren't close. You were closer to him than I was. So and so was close to him. Personally, I haven't seen him in X years. You can explain that in fact you weren't close.

Gift: It seems like the advice you are giving people is that your family should know, and if they don't, they are idiots.

Lisa: No, I am not saying that.

Gift: You should lie to your family unless you get caught. In that case, say it as meanly as possible. I,

Lisa: No this is your advice.

Gift: No, that's not my advice at all.

Lisa: No, your advice is that every time someone dies, immediately throw away everything you've ever thought of.

Gift: I didn't even say that from afar.

Lisa: If someone is talking to you about how they feel about a death and you personally don't have the same feelings, I don't understand why you can't just pretend they're talking about their carpet. You personally don't care about your carpet.

Gift: Good OK.

Lisa: But part of the social contract is that you pretend you are taking care of your carpet.

Gift: I can't do this because they are my family and not idiots so they already know I don't care so bring it to me. Am I trying to convince them that I actually mind by doubling down on the lie and of course in an aggressively mean way? Or am I telling them the truth when they ask me directly if I care?

Lisa: Sure, tell them the truth, you know, I'm really not that invested in the carpet, but I can see that these options are really important to you.

Gift: In fact, I agree with that advice, but when I asked you to suggest that you originally just said this was mean and that you should lie.

Lisa: Ok, you see, sometimes when someone wants to talk to you about their rug, it's rude to say that I don't take care of your rug, even in a nice voice. You know, I don't care about your carpet. That's impolite.

Gift: But it's your carpet too.

Lisa: It's not a lie to be told you know I'm not really invested in this but what do you think? That doesn't lie.

Gift: Once again, this whole debate seems to hang on you saying that you don't need your family, it is not necessary

Lisa: Correct,

Gift: Are idiots, be mean to it.

Lisa: When did I say I was mean?

Gift: I can't get you to answer a question directly when I say.

Lisa: I do not understand the question.

Gift: Then say that.

Lisa: What is the question? Ask me the question. What is the question?

Gift: Families are very complicated

Lisa: OK.

Gift: And death is very complicated, and the process of grieving is fraught with misunderstandings and challenges and problems that families are difficult to deal with. And often the family member who behaves differently from all other family members is the one who feels left out and lost and, in some cases, is wrongly judged or criticized or charged for their feelings. And

Lisa: Agree.

Gift: You have that in your family. You are the weird duck in your family. And I ask you how you dealt with it and still reached everyone. And you've given some excellent answers, some excellent answers on how to avoid it, and so on. They were all perfect. OK, what's the downside of that? What advice do you have for people who do not want to use this advice? And your answer seems to be the advice you originally gave as the only advice. There is no second chance. If you don't use this advice you are a fool. Your advice so far has been excellent. What advice do you have for people who don't want the semantic argument they want to make, who don't want to mislead, lie, or cheat? My question is, what advice do you have for people who want to tell their loved ones how they felt about the deceased because they know their family doesn't like the answer but they want to? Don't say you don't have to. Don't say you shouldn't. You want to do it. They want to tell their family, look, I don't care that he's dead.

Lisa: Do we have an explanation for why they want to do this?

Gift: They didn't like the guy. Maybe he abused them or she hurt them and they get sick and tired of hearing how great the deceased was because of their own mental health, knowing that this person hurt them in a very traumatic way and not for nothing, they are looking around their family now and they think, well, you are clearly not on my side considering this person is a hero now.

Lisa: In this scenario, does the surrounding family know and purposely ignore the backstory or does the surrounding family not?

Gift: No, of course they know and there is a chance that this person was dismissive, emotionally abusive, abusive, etc. to them too. As it was in your family, your grandfather was no nicer to the other family members. You didn't cut him off for some reason.

Lisa: I never cut him off, I just didn't have a relationship with him and it wasn't that he was mean, it's just that he was drunk. What you are describing is a family that understands the abuse. Everyone knows about it and someone is actively denying the truth of the abuse against someone. In your scenario, let's say Uncle Bob molested Jimmy as a child and now Mary is talking about Uncle Bob. Uncle Bob has died. Mary and Jimmy are talking. Mary knows full well that Uncle Bob molested Jimmy and is now saying nice things about Uncle Bob.

Gift: Yes.

Lisa: Your question is what should Jimmy Mary say about Uncle Bob?

Gift: Yes.

Lisa: But again, Mary knows that Uncle Bob was abusive and she says this stuff anyway. What is she actively denying the abuse? She says all these beautiful things even though she knows this back story?

Gift: Yes, very similar.

Lisa: Ok, but when someone actually does this, they clearly don't care about you or your thoughts or feelings. Nobody cares how Jimmy feels about it. Mary is actively mean to poor Jimmy, so I don't think Jimmy owes her anything.

Gift: First of all, Jimmy doesn't owe her anything, I'm saying that Jimmy wants to stand up for himself. He wants to remind everyone that this person wasn't that great. I think you forgot.

Lisa: Ok why doesn't he say that?

Gift: Jimmy is good at it. I keep asking you how do you recommend Jimmy to remind people that this happened and that is why he feels this way?

Lisa: Exactly like that, he says, look, I understand that you all had a different relationship with this person, but that's the relationship I had and so I don't feel like saying nice things right now.

Gift: And how does Jimmy handle when the family turns him on because, for example, you didn't choose to say that, because in your words your family would come after you.

Lisa: You get it completely wrong.

Gift: Ok, better explain it then.

Lisa: Jimmy has three options; he can either just bite his tongue and wait for it to be over. He can get up and leave and not participate, or he can say, look, stop.

Gift: Again, I understand that there are several options. But that is, I want you to answer the option Jimmy wants to choose, and your answer to that is always, well, Jimmy can choose different options.

Lisa: I don't think the option he chooses is a good one.

Gift: That does not matter. That is not the question you have been asked.

Lisa: Ok the question is what should he say? It should say exactly what I just said. Look, I didn't have that relationship with him. He wasn't a good person.

Gift: Yes, I totally agree with you. How should Jimmy deal with the aftermath?

Lisa: What is the fallout?

Gift: The family tells Jimmy that you're just cold hearted. You react wrongly. You're not doing it right Why don't you care Oh, he asked for forgiveness for that.

Lisa: So you are basically saying that the family is abusing Jimmy.

Gift: No, I'm not saying that at all.

Lisa: How do you think this is not abusive? If I tell you how I feel about someone who has died and this is your answer to what I just shared with you, how is that not a terrible thing for you? A terrible, abusive thing to say?

Gift: I have just.

Lisa: So you're asking me how Jimmy is going to react to the abuse he's now suffering from his family.

Gift: I've personally seen your family do this to you and you don't categorize it as abuse, you categorize it

Lisa: You have never seen this before.

Gift: Yeah I did, and you categorize it as, look, it's not abuse, Gabe, they don't understand, emotions are high. You see it differently. Disagreements happen. Families are complicated. Incidentally, I totally agree with you. All of these things you tell me are true, the fact that your aunts see your grandfather differently from you and they tell you that they don't abuse you, they don't agree with you. It may not be abuse. If someone disagrees with a review, they don't abuse you.

Lisa: It depends on.

Gift: They just don't believe that grandpa was drunk all his life and then told you that they don't abuse you. And I don't understand why you think it is.

Lisa: Ok, but you keep switching back and forth between this hypothetical scenario you created and my family. These are not equivalents.

Gift: Yes, the hypothetical scenario is exactly your family.

Lisa: No it is not.

Gift: Yes, it is,

Lisa: No,

Gift: Yes, 100 percent.

Lisa: No,

Gift: 100 percent.

Lisa: Ok i don't know what to tell you You keep commuting back and forth between these two things, which are not comparable.

Gift: They are completely the same. The example I am using is an example for your family.

Lisa: My grandfather never abused me.

Gift: Being drunk is abusive, it just is. You decided that abuse is just violence, like beating you. You can.

Lisa: Well, there are other forms of abuse.

Gift: I agree.

Lisa: But yes, some kind of malice, yes.

Gift: Correct.

Lisa: So you think that addicts who are addicts are inherently abusive?

Gift: Unfortunately, I think the reason you ignore your family so that you can drink is because they suffer. For example, your grandfather claims to have had no relationship with his granddaughter.

Lisa: Yes, he made his choice.

Gift: Correct. He preferred alcohol to you. I see this as a form of abuse. I understand you don't. But yeah, I look at my untreated mental illness. I look at my drug and alcohol abuse and the way I have treated you. I look at the way I've treated my parents, my family, my first wife, co-workers and friends. I was clearly abusive towards them. And anyone who says otherwise is just trying to make me feel better. I understand that there are extenuating circumstances with my mental illness etc. But I had to apologize for everyone. I had to make it right because it was wrong.

Lisa: OK.

Gift: And I believe that the way your grandfather behaved towards you and the people you love caused trauma. I don't see how it doesn't work.

Lisa: All right then?

Gift: But you've decided that your grandfather didn't abuse you.

Lisa: I think there are many levels and this is a very complicated subject. In general, I would say that addicts who are addicts are not categorical abuse because that is exactly what addicts do.

Gift: So you don't have to make amends.

Lisa: No, I'm not saying that, I just don't know, I have the feeling that the term abuse is very loaded and maybe it is not the right question for it.

Gift: You see, you're playing a semantic argument again, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Lisa: No, I don't actually do that. Why don't you define it?

Gift: Whenever you reject people you are supposed to love, whenever you break promises, whenever you lie, hurt, misinform what word to use that causes pain

Lisa: OK.

Gift: For someone to protect. Whenever you break a promise, it is a form of abuse. I realize it's at the bottom. I'm not. This is the problem with spectra. I don't think the type of abuse your grandfather was guilty of is the equivalent of a serial killer. This abuse is much, much, much worse. But I think your mom would agree that he was an abusive father and so much so that she kept you away from him. Don't you think this has a ripple effect?

Lisa: However, they equate different relationships. Parents have a very different obligation towards their children than grandparents have towards their grandchildren or towards other family members. What obligations do grandparents have towards grandchildren?

Gift: I believe when you tell someone that you love them unconditionally, it means that you support everything that they do. If they have children, you must be ready to die for their children as you would be ready to die for them. Could you imagine your grandfather letting you die and then explaining to your mother: No, honey, I love you unconditionally. I just let your child die.

Lisa: OK.

Gift: I don't think your mother would say I believe you love me unconditionally.

Lisa: OK.

Gift: I think your mother would wholeheartedly expect her parents to save her child. And I think you would too.

Lisa: Ok, where is the level, for example, parents are required to care for their children on a daily basis. Are grandparents obliged to do so?

Gift: No.

Lisa: OK if you need a babysitter or someone to watch. Are you obliged to do these things?

Gift: No of course not.

Lisa: How often do grandparents need to see grandchildren in order to fulfill their grandparent obligation?

Gift: There is no answer to that, and there is no answer to that.

Lisa: Okay, but we'll follow him anyway. So would you say

Gift: You had no relationship with your grandfather.

Lisa: What obligations do grandparents have towards grandchildren? Correct. And you say it is a form of abuse to evade your obligations for your addiction. If you prefer your alcohol or drugs to other people, that is one form of abuse. You say that.

Gift: I say this when you choose alcohol

Lisa: No no no. Do you say that Yes No?

Gift: Yes.

Lisa: So, if you miss your commitments to someone because of your addiction, it is abusive. But you also just told me that grandparents actually have no obligations to their grandchildren.

Gift: I did not say that.

Lisa: Then explain their responsibilities. What obligations do grandparents have towards their grandchildren? You just told me that you have an obligation to save your life in imminent danger. OK, great. Yes sure. What else do you have Are they obligated to spend time with you or are they obligated to take care of you? Are they obliged to give you money? What are their obligations?

Gift: I think they have an obligation to keep their promises and I think if their children want to keep their children away from you,

Lisa: Correct,

Gift: Then abuse happened.

Lisa: Ok, you are obliged to

Gift: I'm sorry I do

Lisa: Stop. You have an obligation to keep promises. So if someone doesn't make promises, they have fulfilled all of their obligations.

Gift: Yes, if you are grandparents and you refuse to see your grandchild, then you have fulfilled your obligations and are good grandparents. That's exactly what I'm saying.

Lisa: Ok, that's why we're doing this, that's reflective listening. So explain it to me. You cannot define an obligation for me that grandparents have that my grandfather, for example, did not fulfill. So how is that abusive? What obligation has he not fulfilled?

Gift: Your grandfather died and you don't care. He didn't fulfill the obligation where you love him.

Lisa: Großeltern sind daher verpflichtet, die Liebe ihrer Enkelkinder zu gewährleisten.

Gift: Sie sind verpflichtet, in irgendeiner Form eine Beziehung zu Ihnen zu haben. Ich glaube das ja. Und die Tatsache, dass er keine hatte, zeigt, dass etwas sehr schief gelaufen ist. Und es tut mir leid, dass ich nicht genau bin. Sie scheinen genau zu wollen, aber selbst Amerika hat nicht genau, wissen Sie, wie lautet die rechtliche Definition von Pornografie? Wir wissen es nicht. Aber wir wissen es, wenn wir es sehen. Das ist die rechtliche Definition.

Lisa: Das ist ein Problem.

Gift: Ich sage nicht, dass es gut oder schlecht ist. Ich bin nur Großeltern, die ihren Enkelkindern gegenüber Verpflichtungen haben. Es tut mir Leid. Sie tun es einfach. Was diese Verpflichtungen sind, wird sich je nach Alter, Gesundheit und Entfernung ändern. Ich kann nicht sagen, wie oft. Meine Großeltern lebten 400 Meilen entfernt, deshalb habe ich sie nur acht Mal im Jahr gesehen. Deine anderen Großeltern haben dich jeden Tag beobachtet. Die Eltern deines Vaters haben dich jeden Tag beobachtet. Die Tatsache, dass Sie geweint haben, als Ihre Großmutter väterlicherseits starb. Ich habe dich weinen sehen.

Lisa: Ja, wir standen uns sehr nahe.

Gift: Und dieser Gentleman stirbt und du bist einfach so, ich bin apathisch. Ich scheiße nicht. Und dann täuschen Sie vor, anderen Familienmitgliedern zu helfen, die ehrlich gesagt auch nicht scheiße sind. Sagt mir, dass sie keine Verpflichtung erfüllt haben. Und Sie sagen, es gibt keine Verpflichtung. Sie müssen dich nicht lieben. Dem stimme ich nicht zu. Es tut mir Leid. Dem stimme ich einfach nicht zu. Und ich mache mir Sorgen darüber, warum Sie das für OK halten.

Lisa: Ich mache eine Ausnahme, wenn Sie Fälschung sagen. Es ist keine Fälschung zu sagen, dass ich in meinem eigenen Namen nicht traurig bin. Ich bin in Ihrem Namen traurig. Wie ist das vorgetäuscht?

Gift: Weil Sie das nicht jedem Mitglied Ihrer Familie gesagt haben.

Lisa: Welche Wörter müsste ich jetzt noch einmal verwenden?

Gift: Ich möchte noch einmal sagen, dass Sie dazu nicht verpflichtet sind. Ich glaube nicht, dass Lisa Kiner mit dieser Methode etwas falsch gemacht hat.

Lisa: Das haben Sie vorher nicht gesagt.

Gift: Ja, ich habe gesagt, das ist eine ausgezeichnete Methode, ich bin damit einverstanden. Was ist, wenn Sie es nicht verwenden möchten und entschieden haben, dass dies ein persönlicher Angriff ist? Der einzige Grund, warum jemand es nicht verwenden möchte, ist, dass Sie sich geirrt haben? Nein, das ist eine Entscheidung, die Sie für sich getroffen haben

Lisa: OK aber

Gift: Sie haben Recht, es zu benutzen. Du machst dieses Ding buchstäblich dort, wo du willst, oh, ich habe mir gerade eine große Schüssel Schokoladeneis besorgt. Und ich denke, oh, Lisa, das ist eine ausgezeichnete Selbstpflegetechnik. Was empfehlen Sie, wenn jemand kein Schokoladeneis möchte? Zunächst einmal dürfen sie Schokolade haben. I know. I know. I agree. Sie dürfen Schokolade haben. Aber was empfehlen Sie jemandem, der keine Schokolade möchte? Nun, warum sollte jemand das auswählen? Weißt du, ich mache eine Ausnahme von dir und sage, dass die Leute keine Schokolade wollen.

Lisa: OK, also?

Gift: Nein, ich gebe mir nur ein paar andere Geschmacksrichtungen.

Lisa: Ok, aber was sind die anderen Geschmacksrichtungen in dieser Analogie?

Gift: Ich weiß nicht, ich habe dich ganz speziell gefragt.

Lisa: Ich würde sagen, wenn Sie Ihren Familienmitgliedern klar gemacht haben, wie Sie sich fühlen, und sie Ihnen immer wieder sagen, dass Sie falsch liegen und leugnen, wie Sie sich fühlen, weiß ich nicht, dass es einen Rat für Sie gibt. Du steckst fest. Diese Leute machen es nicht richtig mit dir. Dies sind keine Menschen, die Ihnen die angemessene Menge an Familienliebe zeigen. An diesem Punkt können Sie also entscheiden, ob Sie das tolerieren oder nicht.

Gift: Aber wir werden es alle tolerieren, Lisa. Und das ist nicht die Wahl, die Sie und ich in unseren eigenen Familien getroffen haben. Und Sie und ich glauben nicht, dass unsere Familien uns gegenüber missbräuchlich sind. Wir tun es einfach nicht.

Lisa: Niemals hat ein Familienmitglied zu mir gesagt, oh mein Gott, das sollte dir wirklich mehr interessieren. Nein, das hat mir noch niemand gesagt.

Gift: In vielerlei Hinsicht stimme ich Ihnen zu, wie Sie wissen, spielen wir den Anwalt des Teufels, weil wir so etwas tun, um dieses Zeug auszutricksen. Aber diese Idee, dass Sie und ich dies in unseren eigenen Familien tolerieren, nur weil Ihre Familie wie minderwertig missbräuchlich ist oder Dinge tut, die Sie nicht mögen. Und wir streiten uns hin und her darüber, ob es missbräuchlich ist oder nicht. Aber sagen wir mal, dass es so ist. Ich werde meine Familie immer noch nicht abschneiden. Du wirst deine Familie nicht abschneiden. Was empfehlen Sie diesen Menschen, um ihre Familie und ihre geistige Gesundheit zu erhalten?

Lisa: Begrenzen Sie die Exposition.

Gift: Gut, ok. Sie können Ihre Belichtung jedoch nicht ständig einschränken.

Lisa: Dann können Sie vielleicht Ihre geistige Gesundheit nicht aufrechterhalten. Sie wissen, wenn Sie sagen, schauen Sie, meine Familie ist missbräuchlich, aber ich kann meine Exposition gegenüber ihnen nicht einschränken. Sie sind in einer schlechten Position. Du bist gefangen. Ich weiß nicht, dass es eine Lösung für Sie gibt. Ich würde sagen, warum können Sie Ihre Exposition nicht begrenzen? Sicher gibt es einen Mechanismus für Sie, um das zu tun. Wir alle entscheiden, was wir von unseren Familien tolerieren wollen. Und manche Dinge rollen Sie einfach mit den Augen oder beißen die Zähne zusammen. Ich denke, jeder trifft die ganze Zeit mit seinen Familien die gleichen Entscheidungen. Und wieder spielt es keine Rolle, dass dies mit dem Tod zusammenhängt. Es ist genau der gleiche Prozess.

Gift: Wir haben viel darüber gesprochen, wie Sie Ihre Familie und ihre Erwartungen verwalten, wie Sie Ihre Erwartungen innerhalb Ihrer Familie verwalten, wie Sie miteinander auskommen usw., und ich denke, Sie haben Recht. Denken Sie, dass die Tatsache, dass es mit dem Tod zu tun hat, vielleicht ein weiteres Element hinzufügt, das die Menschen nervös macht und das es vielleicht etwas schwieriger macht?

Lisa: Es macht es schwieriger, aber das Konzept ist das gleiche. Es macht die Emotionen höher, es macht es schwieriger zu tun. Aber das Grundkonzept von Ihnen hat in Ihrem Kopf entschieden, was Sie tolerieren wollen und was nicht. Beißen Sie die Zähne zusammen oder gehen Sie weg. Es gibt nur zwei Möglichkeiten. Sie können das Verhalten anderer Personen nicht kontrollieren. Wenn sie weiterhin das tun, was Sie als unangenehm empfinden, ist das ein Deal Breaker für Sie? Bist du draußen oder wirst du einen Weg finden, es zu überleben?

Gift: Lisa, ich mag das Wort, das du dort verwendest: Überleben. Einerseits ist es ein großes Wort, denn wie Sie überleben Sie einen Autounfall. Sie überleben den Untergang Ihres Kreuzfahrtschiffes, Sie überleben COVID. Aber das Überleben existiert auf so vielen Ebenen. Ich meine, du überlebst mit deiner geistigen Gesundheit. Sie überleben innerhalb der Grenzen Ihrer Familie. Sie überleben 39 Tage auf einer Insel und überlisten und überdauern und spielen. It can mean many things, but I think it’s kind of a powerful word and sort of that kind of thing that you say to yourself in the mirror to psych yourself up. I will survive my family. I will survive this. I will get through to the next stage. I think we are survivors. That’s a number one thing that I say about people who are living with mental illness is that we know how to survive.

Lisa: I actually was thinking about re-recording that line, I think survivor might be a little bit too strong because it does have this connotation of life and death and maybe it’s more of a get through or tolerate or live with or make the best of.

Gift: But listen, when you’re getting ready to go and when you’re leaving your house, your bedroom, your town, your car, and you say I will survive, that feels much better than I will tolerate. So I

Lisa: There’s more drama to it, yes.

Gift: But I mean, we need a mantra. We need a mantra to get through these tough conversations and these things that happen.

Lisa: The thing to get through it is to say this will pass

Gift: Yeah, this will pass.

Lisa: Here I am with my family and frankly, this isn’t part of my regular life. My regular life is at my house with my chosen family and in my day to day life. This is just the aberration I go through for visits.

Gift: Well, listen, this, too, shall pass and I will survive, it does sound better than this too shall pass. I will tolerate.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, little drama queen, but OK.

Gift: I mean, well, I am what I am.

Lisa: Yes, you are, and that’s why we all love you and I love doing the show.

Gift: Oh, I love doing the show with you, too, Lisa. I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations. There is time to get it for the holidays, so order it now on Amazon.com. Or if you want show stickers, you want me to sign it and you want a whole bunch of cool free swag, head over to gabehoward.com right now.

Lisa: Don’t forget to listen to the outtake and we’ll see you next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person? Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details.

On the subject of matching items