Podcast: Is Happiness a Alternative?

Join us for an in-depth discussion about whether or not people can actually choose happiness.

(Transcript available below)

Please subscribe to our show:

And we love written reviews!

About the not crazy podcast hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and public speaker living with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Insanity is an asshole and other observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast Not Crazy. She is the recipient of the National Alliance on Mental Illness' Above and Beyond award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has partnered with Gabe for over a decade to advocate mental health. She lives in Columbus, Ohio with her husband. enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, chooses the best and sends the other 11 back.

Computer generated transcript for “Luck is a choice” episode

publisher's Note:: Please note that this transcript was computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammatical errors. Thank you very much.

Lisa: Y.You're listening to Not Crazy, a psychologically central podcast hosted by my ex-husband with bipolar disorder. Together we created the Mental Health Podcast for People Who Hate Mental Health Podcasts.

Gift: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Not Crazy podcast, I'm your host, Gabe Howard, and with me, as always, Lisa Kiner. Lisa, I invite you to speak now so that you know it's your turn. This comes more than you think if Lisa doesn't know when to speak. I take some responsibility for that because I'm a speaker, Lisa.

Lisa: You have to repeat that as I cannot edit this because you blurred it in your words.

Gift: I wanted you to do it, I wanted you to leave that there.

Lisa: Why should I leave this there?

Gift: Because it's funny.

Lisa: It's not that fun.

Gift: I found it funny and I choose you. I think it's good We should fight more.

Lisa: We should fight. Wait a minute. What? I'm sorry I didn't hear the last part. Why should we fight more?

Gift: People like the debate, they like the sharpness, they like the enemies, we've been accused of getting along too well. We didn't create enough drama.

Lisa: "Really?"

Gift: Yes.

Lisa: Did someone actually say that?

Gift: Several people have said this.

Lisa: Whoa! Oh my god this is my dream. So you're telling me the goal is to fight you more?

Gift: The goal has always been to be enemies.

Lisa: But to fight more specifically with you? Oh my god, I'll be so good at it.

Gift: I know that's why I chose you.

Lisa: Oh, I've been training for this for years.

Gift: I thought you were uniquely qualified not to be a yes person.

Lisa: Thank you very much.

Gift: I was very concerned when people said, yes, the problem is, Lisa's a yes person

Lisa: I don't think that's true. you usually just say the right stuff, just not always. If you're wrong, you're far wrong, but usually you're good. Otherwise I wouldn't hang out with you because it would annoy me too much.

Gift: Wow, I don't know what that is like.

Lisa: OK go back. You said welcome. Well. Hey everyone, I'm pretending that this didn't happen. I just go now because I'm a professional. Do not look at me like that. Hello everybody. Today's quote is from Abraham Lincoln. And he said: Most people are as happy as they choose. And he was the 16th president.

Gift: You know Lisa, I preferred the quote a lot, and I'm disappointed that you didn't use it. I feel like I'm constantly worrying about the next part of my life without realizing that I'm right in the middle of what I've always been looking forward to. And that came from a Twitter user, Josie Vanco.

Lisa: Well that is an absolutely brilliant quote and it describes you perfectly, but yes I have a feeling that you don't really get the essence of the quotes. I have the 16th President, our nation's savior. And you've found one of your Twitter followers who is actually saying something very smart. I just feel like you need to improve your quotes game. Maybe I could get you a book or a website or something. I can quote better than you.

Gift: You argue with me for no reason.

Lisa: You told me to do this.

Gift: That must be good.

Lisa: Well that's a burden on me.

Gift: Let me start over

Lisa: Can't just turn it on and off, Gabe.

Gift: Abraham Lincoln was obviously great, I mean, we learned about him in school and we clearly didn't learn anything about Josie Vanco.

Lisa: His birthday is the same day as my mother's.

Gift: They are about the same age.

Lisa: Haha.

Gift: That quote spoke to me like you said, it describes me to a T. Do you remember the show The Office? Do you remember the office One of the quotes one of the characters made is that the problem with the best years of your life is that you don't know they are the best years of your life if you live them.

Lisa: Absolutely true.

Gift: I think we all struggle with mental health problems, depression, sadness, loneliness and fear. We don't know when it's good when it happens. We know when we are suffering. And then we think backwards and think, oh why can't I be like last summer when I was happy? But here's the thing, of course. Last summer we didn't know we were happy. It's only in hindsight.

Lisa: But is that true? I don't know that you were happy last summer. Why? Because you decided last summer was better than this summer

Gift: For sure.

Lisa: If you weren't happy in the moment, how do you define happiness? If you didn't know you were happy, are you really happy?

Gift: It's meta right? As you would say, it's, ooohhh, so meta.

Lisa: They don't understand the meaning of phrases I use. That doesn't mean that.

Gift: That's because you're using them all incorrectly.

Lisa: No, that's not the reason.

Gift: Is a box with boxes meta?

Lisa: That's totally meta, understand?

Gift: But

Lisa: Whoa. Yes.

Gift: But do you think you're happy when you're unhappy, not meta?

Lisa: Right, something that is meta is self-referential.

Gift: What if you are happy but only notice when you have something to compare? Is that meta?

Lisa: Yes, maybe we will go with you for the purposes of this conversation, yes. Yes, it is.

Gift: My whole point is that last summer, I think pretty much the whole world was better.

Lisa: Because we're doing a COVID thing?

Gift: Well I mean it is actually related to the global pandemic, but you know

Lisa: Right right.

Gift: Last summer we went through summer and it was just like we didn't get the vacation we wanted. The fair food wasn't as good as we imagined. You know the concert series wasn't good. Our sports team lost. It was a mediocre summer. And now we are in this summer where everything is canceled. The whole world becomes hell and we start to think. And we think last summer wasn't that bad. In fact, our perspective has changed because a shitty fair is better than no fair. And a mediocre concert is better than no concert. So we're starting to realize that last year was actually a pretty decent summer, but it's only in hindsight. I think this is how happiness works for a lot of people.

Lisa: This is how happiness works for you, but that is part of your problem. You are always comparing things, you are always comparing yourself to other people, you are always comparing this situation with this situation and you always come up short. This is one of the reasons you are unhappy.

Gift: That's because happiness has no definition. See, a dollar is a dollar. Gabe do you have a dollar I can look at my wallet and if there's a dollar in there the answer is yes. If there isn't a dollar in there, the answer is no. But if someone said, hey Gabe, are you rich? Now what now? How do we choose? Because I'm going to say, hey, I think having a hundred million dollars is rich, but you're going to say Bill Gates doesn't. Bill Gates thinks this is poverty. Well. Well what do we do now? OK, so Bill Gates is rich, but you know who the Sultan is from

Lisa: Brunei.

Gift: Is The Richest Man Really? He is the Sultan of Brunei

Lisa: I think it's Jeff Bezos now.

Gift: Well i don't know But there are some who Bill Gates isn't the richest guy. So this person thinks Bill Gates is poor. He doesn't want to play at this level. And Jeff Bezos may even have more money. But he's not a sultan. He is not a king. He cannot enact dictatorial laws. So I don't know if Jeff Bezos has more money than the Sultan of Brunei, but I do know that the Sultan of Brunei has more power and influence than Jeff Bezos.

Lisa: I don't know that's true.

Gift: You know damn well it's true.

Lisa: Not the point of the story.

Gift: Jeff Bezos has no military. He is not a king. Jeff Bezos can't murder all of his people for fun. I don't even know if the Sultan of Brunei does, but he allowed it, Jeff Bezos didn't.

Lisa: Yeah, so that's not the point of the show. Bring us back to happiness.

Gift: This is my point. We can't even determine who has more power, Jeff Bezos or the Sultan of Brunei? But you want me to determine happiness How?

Lisa: No, not for everyone, just for you.

Gift: Stop, stop right there, you just said, Gabe, I want you to try to determine happiness just for yourself, but you also said don't compare yourself to other people, places or things.

Lisa: Right right.

Gift: How do I do that then? How do I know if I am happy?

Lisa: You don't have this problem when it comes to recovery. We have talked many times about how restoration itself is defined.

Gift: But OK, well, should I be as happy as I recovered?

Lisa: Yes.

Gift: Because the way I found out I was in recovery was that my life this year was better than last year. I have literally compared myself not only to previous examples of Gabe, but to others as well. And you just said you shouldn't do that with luck.

Lisa: How did you decide you were in recovery?

Gift: Naturally,

Lisa: Seriously, was that your system?

Gift: Yes, 100 percent, and I don't think that's inappropriate.

Lisa: Wait wait wait For example in the summer of COVID or if you have a serious car accident tomorrow or if your dog dies, are you suddenly no longer recovering?

Gift: Well, possibly what are mine? What happens after that? And listen when you said I was in a car accident, am I in physical pain?

Lisa: Yes.

Gift: Yeah, I'm probably not the best of me. Don't you think that's reasonable?

Lisa: But does that mean you are not recovering from bipolar disorder?

Gift: Possibly.

Lisa: So you are telling me that every single bad event in your life automatically means that you will not recover

Gift: No,

Lisa: Bipolar disorder?

Gift: No, I don't know why you're adding the word automatically. No of course not. This is.

Lisa: Because you just said you made that decision. Today is better than the day before. Doesn't that give you any leeway at all every day? Are you trying to do better every single day of your life than the day before? Because that sounds pretty difficult.

Gift: I'm just saying that as I restore, I'll compare this version of Gabe to the previous version of Gabes to see how I'm doing. I need some measurements to know if I'm better. Otherwise, I could just declare myself healthy, find it true, and you could say, dude, you're homeless, you're not taking your medication. Your wife left you, you haven't showered in six months. But in your opinion, all I have to do is decide that I am in recovery and it matters. That seems like nonsense.

Lisa: So you say that by comparing yourself to previous versions of yourself and determining if you are happy, you determine happiness? OK, I can work with it. Then why are you not happy right now? This is the best you have ever been. You're the healthiest you've ever been. You are in the best position with your recovery. You have the most money. You have the most stable relationship. You have the cutest dog. Why are you not happy this second?

Gift: I can answer that question with ten thousand dollars, right? I need ten thousand dollars.

Lisa: Be happy?

Gift: No, I only need ten thousand dollars. It's an analogy

Lisa: okay

Gift: Consequences. The goal is ten thousand dollars. Anyone understand? Gabe needs ten thousand dollars. Now you say Gabe, oh my god you did it. You have eight thousand dollars. And I say I know I don't have the ten thousand dollars. Well, this is the most money you have ever had for this goal. With that you have achieved the goal. No, the goal is ten thousand dollars. Having eight thousand dollars means I still haven't got there. Oh my God. You know when you started doing this you had zero and went up to eight thousand dollars. In fact, this is the most money you have ever had for the goal. You just can't get there. Now take out the word goal and use luck. And there is the problem. Plus, you still haven't defined the word happiness for me. Ten thousand dollars. That's an exact number, isn't it? So luck. I want to know what happiness is. Tell me what happiness is Everyone looks at me and says, oh, you have to decide for yourself. It's internal. You have to decide. Even the sixteenth president who beat my husband for the quote said, well, most people are as happy as they choose. Well I think that's a nice philosophical point that makes people warm and fuzzy inside. This is nonsense. It's literal nonsense.

Lisa: That's a problem.

Gift: And besides, you know, while I'm on the subject, only while I'm here, Lisa.

Lisa: Yes, please tell me more, Gabe.

Gift: I just need to. What kind of condescending tripe is that? Oh, you die and you have no money and you have no health insurance and that dog is eating your gangrene leg. Well, just choose to be happy. You are only as happy as you want to be. Listen world. We don't have to care about this person who dies on the side of the road because they made up their minds to be happy. Wow, that's awesome.

Lisa: You have way too many things going on at the same time.

Gift: I just sit back and let you answer.

Lisa: Ok it will take a while because a lot of things are going on here.

Gift: I will be patient.

Lisa: First of all, I love your analogies because they illustrate very clearly everything that is wrong with your approach to happiness. And by the way, the reason you are one is not happy and two will never be happy. Ten thousand dollars is luck, right? That's the analogy.

Gift: Right, yes.

Lisa: Ok, ten thousand dollars is good luck. What are your ten thousand dollars What has to happen for you to be happy? As you said, ten thousand dollars, that's clear. It is precisely. We know exactly. You either have it or you don't. Done. Do you have such a lucky analogy? Can you tell me if blah blah blah blah then i will be happy? Do you have that?

Gift: I mean, but I do

Lisa: Ok, let's hear it. Go.

Gift: You are about to win the arguments.

Lisa: Yes I know. So I want to continue.

Gift: I know I'm about to checkmate because of course there have been dozens of things.

Lisa: Yes.

Gift: As soon as I get a job, I am happy. How

Lisa: Uh-huh.

Gift: As soon as I can be self-employed, I will be happy. As soon as I get into a relationship, I will be happy. As soon as I buy a house, I am happy. As soon as I divorce the annoying Lisa, I'll be happy. As soon as I get a new car, I'm happy. As soon as I go on vacation, I am happy. Right now I'm happy once the pandemic is over.

Lisa: There is always something that is not here yet. Always. You still have one thing that will make you happy, and when you accomplish that thing you say, yeah, I mean, I know I said last month if I could accomplish this goal I would be happy. But now that I think about it. I have vivid memories of the day you told me this was the case before you had gastric bypass. If you could only weigh 300 pounds, this would be it. You would never ask for anything else. That was all you wanted in life. You would be very happy. That was all it took was to weigh 300 pounds.

Gift: In my defense, I have not yet been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Maybe it's not that I'm being unreasonable, it's that I'm getting new data.

Lisa: Ok, what new data did you get?

Gift: The ten thousand dollars is not enough, the reason I wanted ten thousand dollars is because what I wanted to buy cost so much. But in that time it took me to save the ten thousand dollars. The price.

Lisa: Has the price gone up?

Gift: Yes. Now it costs fifteen thousand dollars. I am not the unreasonable one. Society is constantly increasing the price of things. Its inflation.

Lisa: Oh my God,

Gift: It's happiness inflation.

Lisa: My eyes roll so hard I think I'll have permanent brain damage. Your problem is that society is constantly changing the definition of happiness?

Gift: You raise the lucky price,

Lisa: Oh,

Gift: It's inflation.

Lisa: This is.

Gift: Yes.

Lisa: This is genius. There are next to no words to answer it. So great is what you just said.

Gift: So I'm winning, right, I'm winning

Lisa: No no no.

Gift: Don't you believe in inflation?

Lisa: Happiness inflation, OK, well, well, happiness inflation has occurred. Now you need fifteen thousand dollars.

Gift: Yes.

Lisa: Then what is the current price? You can't tell what the price of inflation will be in a year, 10 years, 15 years. But you can tell me what the price is right now. What's the current price? What will it be when you get to the current price? What's it right this second?

Gift: I need the pandemic to end so I can get back to my job. I want to work again

Lisa: I write that down.

Gift: I also want things to be sorted out with my job. You know, there are a lot of transitions right now that make me feel uncomfortable.

Lisa: Law.

Gift: I want you to drop that tone. That would be helpful.

Lisa: You all heard it here first, listeners. Gabe says when the pandemic is over and the uncertainty about his job has cleared and I start being nicer to him, maybe an unrealistic goal I will give you, he will be happy. So this is what it takes.

Gift: Well, I mean, assuming inflation doesn't take over

Lisa: Law,

Gift: I mean,

Lisa: Right right.

Gift: Inflation is a problem.

Lisa: That's honest and I've been thinking about you for years and it's really heartbreaking and really, really sad to see. I read how to choose happiness, right. And one of them had set goals. That people who set goals are happier. You do this part. You are constantly setting goals, and these are usually measurable and reasonably achievable, as indicated in the advice column. Law. But it doesn't matter because you achieve that goal and you are still not happy. Then immediately invent a new goal. I honestly really don't have any. Yes, I will get to know you for 20 years. There are very few times that I have felt that you were happy or satisfied in the moment. Hardly ever.

Gift: Well, wait, wait, that's what drives me. Can you imagine yourself remembering it?

Lisa: "Really?"

Gift: First of all. Wait wait. Just listen to me I listened to you I weighed 550 pounds and said once I weigh 300 pounds I will be happy and satisfied. Can you imagine that I would just have stopped there? I would never have come up with 220, would I? Now let's have some other goals as soon as I get a job. You realize that, I remember this and that job I wanted because I was unemployed for a few years, because I was struggling with bipolar disorder and I was.

Lisa: You were underemployed, you weren't unemployed.

Gift: The point is, I wanted to go back to work full time, and I did, but this job didn't pay off very well. It wasn't a very good job and it didn't pay off well at all. So in your opinion, I would have stayed there. This is not good. Setting all of these goals got me where I am today. You know my next goal is to be like satellite radio or on a large network or, I don't know, expand my podcast hosting skills or start a podcast network. And you say I should just settle for where I am, so I'm just the host of the Not Crazy podcast, the host of the Psych Central podcast, and just call it a day. But you realize that if I had, I would never have gotten the podcast. I would still be all the way back to that shitty job I hated 15 years ago and not making any money with shitty health insurance. You're holding me back

Lisa: Oh. OK, we'll just let this go. I'm holding you back, I'm going to stab you in the face, OK? No no no no.

Gift: Metaphorically, she means she isn't really going to stab me in the face because that would be wrong.

Lisa: A bit like you mean that I'm holding you back metaphorically, which I actually don't do. You probably want to make fun of me. Stop trying to derail the conversation, Gabe. You are trying to change the subject or distract me with off-topic things because, as you know, you are right.

Gift: I don't do that at all. They told me that I am never happy because I immediately set myself a new goal when I reached the old one. Well, but I think setting new goals is good. This is how you develop as a person. It also creates lucky inflation.

Lisa: Quite frankly, you rephrased a personality defect while being driven. I am not impossible to satisfy, I am just motivated to be successful and move forward. OK, so do you want to set a new goal once you hit the previous goal? Great. Yay. Wonderful. But how soon after reaching the goal do you have to set the new goal? Because for you it is within seconds. Don't take a day off. I mean, I don't even ask much. Law. I am not even saying that you should be happy for weeks or months, maybe like a day, maybe a few days. Maybe that would be nice. If you get there on a Friday, maybe you can look forward to the weekend. And then on Monday you could get around to achieving this new unattainable goal.

Gift: Ok, first of all, why do you keep calling them unreachable goals?

Lisa: All right, let me rephrase it.

Gift: This is the fascinating part of trying to create happiness in my opinion because I'm still very excited about the time I told you I wanted to start a national advocacy movement and be a national advocate on the same level as Julie Fast , as Natasha Tracy, as all the high-level supporters I've looked up to for years. And you told me no, that hurt me a lot. Now don't deny that this happened.

Lisa: I didn't tell you no, I told you to start with an achievable goal. You said: Oh, I'll be blah, blah, blah. And I said, OK, instead of being blah, blah, blah, why don't you start by getting up off the couch? You're like the people who say, oh my goal is to run a marathon. How about your goal, go to the mailbox? How about that your goal? I can't help but notice that the goal you have set in the future is always very distant, very difficult to achieve, almost impossible to measure, and cannot be achieved immediately. Something has to happen for it to happen.

Gift: And here's the problem, you've now completely switched because you said Gabe makes good goals that are measurable, and he follows the advice column. And now

Lisa: No no no no no.

Gift: Here we are later. And you are like all of these nebulous goals and make Gabe go to Heaven.

Lisa: No.

Gift: A cake in the sky and no one can reach it.

Lisa: No I say one that you remember wrongly and number two that you use to set the goal that will lead to your happiness. You just said that I would be delighted if I could be a national lawyer.

Gift: That is what I said.

Lisa: Well here you are

Gift: Yes.

Lisa: Are you happy?

Gift: No.

Lisa: Like everything? Were you happy for a minute I'm not even saying that you have to be happy in the long run. Was there just one time of happiness?

Gift: How long is a period?

Lisa: More than a minute.

Gift: Yes.

Lisa: Really how long was that? One hour?

Gift: Perhaps. That's more than a minute.

Lisa: Without exaggeration, I mean we're joking around here, but it wasn't a day, it wasn't a whole day.

Gift: It could have been a day.

Lisa: The first time you got one of those big contracts, you were booked to a big conference and you actually didn't have a full day of luck. You didn’t, and neither did you now Do you remember how we had the whole conversation about self-talk and negative self-talk? Yes, once. That's a true story. We were on vacation. We had three days of vacation. We went on the evening of the second day and you were getting depressed. I said what's up We have a lot of fun. And you said yes, but tomorrow we have to go home.

Gift: Well that's right, we do.

Lisa: We're on vacation, you can't even enjoy the vacation because you're talking about how soon this will end. Yeah, not kidding. You realize that this is actually a life analogy. All life ends, gift.

Gift: How am I supposed to be happy when you tell me I'm going to die?

Lisa: Everyone dies. We were on vacation, we were active on vacation and you carried on. No, no, no, I can't have fun because the vacation ends tomorrow. What, so you can't enjoy life at all? There is no hope for you There is no hope. You can never be happy.

Gift: You know I have a major anxiety disorder.

Lisa: Yes, it was worse then.

Gift: And it was worse then, but you keep saying that like I had a choice. I know when you think backwards you think why doesn't Gabe choose to be happy? He got what he wanted. He reached the goal. But do you know what the definition of anxiety disorder is? I have just

Lisa: You think it's scared? Not Depression or Bipolar?

Gift: I think it's all, I think in the example you used for vacation, it's fear because it's going to end. I'm worried about the next day's trip. I'm worried, you know, I was still afraid of airplanes back then. I really tried very hard. So it was terrible that this should play a role in the end. And then you keep saying to me: choose happiness. Do you walk up to wheelchair users and say do you choose walk? It's just an asshole thing. And you'd never act like that because you understand it's real. Don't you think anxiety disorder is real?

Lisa: That's a good point, and that's a problem, it's not clean. This whole idea of ​​happiness is a choice, a burden on the mentally ill. Well it's a strain on a lot of people, but we're talking about the mentally ill. This is a burden for people with mental illness as it means that you just aren't trying hard enough. Just cheer yourself up. Just get better. So yeah, it's not clean. You have a non-zero point there.

Gift: Oh, just a non-zero? Nur eine Nicht-Null?

Lisa: Ja, aber hier ist das Problem. Wollen Sie damit sagen, dass es völlig unerreichbar ist? Ja, es ist schwieriger für uns, das Glück zu wählen als für Menschen, die keine Geisteskrankheit haben. Aber ist es unmöglich? Nein, es ist nicht unmöglich, insbesondere wenn Sie über die Ressourcen verfügen, die behandelt werden müssen, um sich zu erholen, was Sie tun und was Sie sind. Es ist also nicht unmöglich für uns, dies zu tun. Es kann schwieriger sein als es für den Durchschnitt ist, so wie wir immer zum Beispiel Diabetes zurückkehren. Ja, es ist schwieriger, sein Leben zu leben, wenn Sie Diabetiker sind. Du musst mehr machen. Sie haben einen Plan, aber das ist nicht unmöglich. Und Sie scheinen zu denken, dass dies unmöglich ist. Es ist nicht unmöglich für dich, das Glück zu wählen.

Gabe: Ich verstehe, was Sie sagen, und kehren wir zur Rollstuhl-Analogie zurück

Lisa: in Ordnung

Gabe: Das ist auch nicht sauber. Ich folge dieser unglaublichen Anwältin für Gesundheit, der kürzlich ein Teil ihres Beines amputiert werden musste und die ihre Reise aufzeichnet. Und eines der Dinge, die sie immer und immer wieder sagt, ist, dass ich mich dafür entscheiden muss, wieder zu gehen. An dem Tag, an dem sie aus der Operation kam, hatte sie das Bild und sie meint, ich kann noch nicht für meine Prothese angepasst werden, weil sie nicht verheilt ist. Nun, das geschah wie vor einem Jahr. Jetzt ist sie an dem Punkt angelangt, an dem sie die Prothese macht, und sie sagt natürlich immer wieder, dass sie all diese Leute sieht, die Prothesen benutzen und einfach normal laufen. Sie bringt natürlich die Marathonläufer zur Sprache, die sie benutzen, und sie läuft immer noch mit einem Stock. Und manchmal tritt sie falsch. Und sie ist eine sehr, sehr ehrliche Bloggerin. Aber du hast Recht, wenn sie im Rollstuhl sitzen würde, wäre es nicht unvernünftig für dich, auf dich zuzugehen und zu sagen, hör zu, du kannst gehen, wenn du willst. Ich möchte nur, dass du verstehst, dass sie es will und sie macht so viel Hölle durch, sie arbeitet so hart. Aber du hast Recht, denn sie entscheidet sich dafür, zu Fuß zu gehen, zu wollen, die Arbeit zu erledigen. Es gibt ein Datum in der Zukunft, an dem sie gut laufen wird. Und wenn sie eine Jeans trägt, wissen die Leute, die sie gerade kennengelernt haben, nicht einmal, dass sie eine Beinprothese darunter hat. Ich glaube, ich verstehe, was Sie sagen, aber ich habe das Gefühl, dass die Leute sie anfeuern. Ich habe das Gefühl, wenn sie hinfällt, sind die Leute wie, steh wieder auf, du kannst es tun. Während, wenn ich hinfalle, sind die Leute wie, wählen Glück, dummer Arsch. Ich habe nicht das Gefühl, dass ich das Cheerleading bekomme, das sie bekommt.

Lisa: Sie nicht, aber na und?

Gabe: Ich denke, das ist ein ausgezeichneter Punkt. It’s hard enough being sick, but now I’ve got everybody yelling at me for being sick.

Lisa: Ok, but let’s go back to the analogy you just gave about how she is doing some non-zero aspect of choosing,

Gabe: She is,

Lisa: Are you?

Gabe: I am.

Lisa: When you say that she had to make the choice to walk again, have you made that choice?

Gabe: I feel like I have.

Lisa: You have not.

Gabe: Ich weiß.

Lisa: And I’m not trying to be a bitch about it, but, yeah, you have not. She says to herself, hey, I know that I’m going to walk again. It will happen. I’m going to make it happen. You don’t say that to yourself. You’re never sitting around saying, you know, this is going to happen. You don’t even think it’s going to happen. And you’re definitely not choosing it.

Gabe: As you know, I abhor the suffering Olympics, but I’m going to play them for a moment because it’s going to make my point.

Lisa: OK

Gabe: So for long time listeners, you don’t need to send me the hypocrite email, I’m already aware. She knows what it’s like to walk. She’s got a clear goal. When she can walk without assistance, she will know that she achieved it. I have never been happy. I don’t know what happiness looks like and nobody can define it for me because I’m supposed to choose it or define it for myself. So you say, have I chosen to be happy? Every time I set that goal and say that I’m going to be happy then, I think that I have. You think that I get there, I can walk and that I intentionally injure myself in some way so that I can’t walk anymore.

Lisa: That’s not a good analogy.

Gabe: It’s a poor analogy. My point is, is that I believe that that will make me happy. And then when I get there, I realize that I am not.

Lisa: Do you honestly believe that?

Gabe: Of course I do, I genuinely and honestly believe that these things will make me happy, I believed with all of my heart that just being a fully functioning adult that didn’t need supports from society or my family would make me happy. I thought that, you know, being a homeowner, being married, getting a dog, having money in the bank, I thought that these things would make me happy. And according to the research, those things were supposed to make me happy. There’s a research study that says, oh, all people need to be happy is an individual income of about seventy five thousand dollars a year, physical health, employment, experience of positive emotions, good social relationships, moral values and family, and basic access to safety and social equality. I have all of those things, so I thought I should be happy. But I’m not. I’m not happy.

Lisa: That is not exactly what said study said. Said study said that people who define themselves as happy often share these traits.

Gabe: Well, I have those traits and I don’t define myself as happy, nobody called me. I don’t think they called anybody with serious and persistent mental illness. I think they called a bunch of random people who, frankly, are living a great life. And they’re like, hey,

Lisa: Yes.

Gabe: Do you like your job, your family? You have money, access to health care? Yeah, I have all those things. Are you happy? But I’m not. Doesn’t that just make me disordered?

Lisa: Yeah,

Gabe: Well, but.

Lisa: Yeah, it does.

Gabe: You don’t think it makes me disordered. You think that I am choosing not to be happy versus I am incapable of being happy. And therein lies the problem. You think this is a choice that I am not choosing. I maintain that it’s a disorder that I have that nobody is curing.

Lisa: Ok, but what are you doing to cure it? What actions are you taking to get yourself this cure?

Gabe: Ok, I go to therapy, I go to my doctor and take my medication, I speak honestly and openly about it. I’ve, of course, achieved all of those things in that research study that they said that people that are happy to share and I set measurable goals and attain them. And it still hasn’t worked.

Lisa: Ok, you can always do more.

Gabe: Yeah, that’s what I said, that’s why I set a new goal, that is the happiness inflation that I talked about. You’re right, I can always do more. And that’s why I set a new goal. And you said that was wrong.

Lisa: No, what you said here are the things that I’m doing, and yet it has not succeeded in making me happy. Well, then clearly you’re doing the wrong things and or you need to add in more things.

Gabe: That is why I keep setting goals, I am

Lisa: No, no, no.

Gabe: Adding in more things.

Lisa: You’re adding the wrong things.

Gabe: How do you know? Tell me what to add.

Lisa: Ok, well, I got a couple of things. I’ve been doing Internet research.

Gabe: This is going to turn out well, was it on YouTube?

Lisa: No, because I could read faster than I can listen.

Gabe: And you don’t like to listen.

Lisa: But Oprah does have

Gabe: Oh, Oprah.

Lisa: This amazing video.

Gabe: Is going to save us all, ladies and gentlemen,

Lisa: Well,

Gabe: I’m buckling in for this. What’s Oprah say to do? Tell me how the billionaire guru with no psychology background is going to fix the serious and persistently mentally ill Gabe Howard. Go.

Lisa: Right, whatever. Not. Forget Oprah, although don’t forget Oprah because she’s amazing.

Gabe: I agree with you, Oprah is amazing and I have a lot of respect for Oprah.

Lisa: Oprah’s amazing.

Gabe: I can’t help but notice that you said I did research on your severe and persistent mental illness by contacting a talk show host.

Lisa: No, you said did you watch a video? I said, no, I did not watch a video, but if you do want to watch a video, Oprah’s got a great video. So if you’re video people watch Oprah. Anyway, stop trying to derail the thing I’m saying.

Gabe: I’m sorry that I brought up that the celebrities can’t save us all and that we should stop valuing celebrities over actual doctors and researchers.

Lisa: Red herring, Gabe, red herring.

Gabe: I prefer a straw man argument

Lisa: Oh, you’re right, that’s better. Yeah, take back the red herring thing.

Gabe: So meta.

Lisa: No, no, no, I’m a little impressed you used strawman correctly and.

Gabe: I’m sad that every time I speak intelligently, you’re shocked. What do you think of me?

Lisa: Really? We were married for years, you think I married a dumb guy? I hate it when you say that. You’re always like, oh, my God, you think I’m stupid. Really? Really. So I just deliberately chose to be around the stupid guy. It’s frankly insulting to my taste.

Gabe: We had a healthy relationship, it’s much better now.

Lisa: It is a lot better now, a lot better. You should all consider divorces, it works out great.

Gabe: Remember when we were married and you specifically told me that fighting in public was wrong?

Lisa: I know, right? That’s why this has changed my world.

Gabe: So fighting in public is wrong, but fighting in public for money is OK.

Lisa: Ich weiß. Like I said, I’ve been training for this job my whole life. Who knew you were actually giving me vocational training all those years?

Gabe: Once again, you’re welcome.

Lisa: We’ll be back in a minute after a word from our sponsors.

Announcer: Interested in learning about psychology and mental health from experts in the field? Give a listen to the Psych Central Podcast, hosted by Gabe Howard. Visit PsychCentral.com/Show or subscribe to The Psych Central Podcast on your favorite podcast player.

Announcer: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com. Secure, convenient, and affordable online counseling. Our counselors are licensed, accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions, plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face to face session. Go to BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counseling is right for you. BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral.

Gabe: Now we’re back discussing, what are we talking about?

Lisa: Gabe’s inability to feel happiness and joy and suck everybody else down.

Gabe: All right, are you ready?

Lisa: I feel like that’s an accurate summary.

Gabe: And we’re back discussing my inability to experience happiness and joy.

Lisa: It’s bleak but true.

Gabe: Now explain to me again why it’s my fault that I’m not happy, even though I have chronicled an actual disorder and the celebrity that’s going to save me.

Lisa: Stop trying to derail what I’m saying. I was looking up about choosing happiness, and I agree it is a very trite saying. I’m not a big one for self-help things. I’m in general not a snuggly, huggly, cuddly person. On the one hand, I feel a little bit icky saying choose happiness, because, yeah. I’m pretty sure rainbows or hearts are going to start coming in here pretty soon, and I really don’t like those things.

Gabe: Space unicorn.

Lisa: Well, OK, never mind, I take back. Space unicorns are great, also narwhals, they’re the unicorns of the sea

Gabe: Narwhals, narwhals, swimming in the ocean

Lisa: Narwhals, swimming in the ocean.

Gabe: Anyways, continue. You’ve been trying to make a point now for about an hour and a half.

Lisa: Gee, I wonder who’s distracting me from that.

Gabe: Who?

Lisa: Oh, for God’s sakes. All right, focus. When you say I’m doing the following things, I do recognize it’s kind of the marathon runner thing where people say, oh, my God, you’re so lazy. I just ran a marathon. Yeah, but did you run a triathlon? I mean, can’t you do better? So there’s always more. No matter what level you hit, there’s always more. So when you say I’m doing the following things, that’s wonderful. That’s great. But there’s always more. And here specifically, Gabe, are the more things that you could do, stop living in the past and more importantly, stop comparing yourself to others. You are constantly comparing yourself to other people and saying, look, I don’t have as much as those people, sad. Well, why are you picking those people? The majority of the world and the majority of humans throughout history are worse off than you are at this exact moment. So why aren’t you comparing yourself to those people? Because if all it takes and you’re the one who just told me that, that the reason you’re unhappy is because you’re comparing yourself to this person and that’s why you’re unhappy. Well, then compare yourself to a different person and poof, happiness.

Gabe: Because the people who are worse off than me, I feel like it’s my job to help them be better. That’s what being a mental health advocate is. So, the fact that they are worse off than me is a representation of my failure and how much more work there is to do.

Lisa: Wow, wow,

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: Wow, I don’t even

Gabe: Yeah, I internalize a lot.

Lisa: Whoa the ego on that. Impressive.

Gabe: I understand what you’re saying about ego, and probably is some of that there. I think that it is intermingled. But, you know, it bothers me. I have this guilt that I was able to get help. Whenever I hear stories of from family members who are talking about their loved ones who died by suicide. And I realized that they lived the same life as me. Their parents love them just as much as my parents loved me. Why was I the lucky one? That disturbs me. I can’t enjoy my recovery until everybody else has recovery, too. It pains me to know that there are people that could be living the exact same life as me if only they could get access to treatment and care. Because that is just so incredibly unfair. That keeps me up at night. The kids nowadays are calling that being an empath. It’s where you absorb other people’s emotions and claim them as your own, which is kind of an egotistical thing to do. And I don’t understand why it doesn’t work with happiness. I am traumatically affected by the suffering of other people who I consider a kindred spirit. And that is the basis of my advocacy. I understand that there is an element of ego in there, but it’s not because I think that I’m great or because I can fix it. A lot of people just don’t care.

Lisa: Yeah, there is no answer to that, you are completely right and it’s horrifying.

Gabe: Hey, I win, I win, I win, I win, I win,

Lisa: No, because you’re

Gabe: All I do is win, win, win and then I win, win, win. No, not too soon,

Lisa: No,

Gabe: Ok.

Lisa: No, no, no. Also inaccurate, but again, sorry, I couldn’t resist.

Gabe: I love how you get to be both my debate partner and you’re like the judge, you’re like inaccurate, no points awarded. I’m just like what happened here? I think I did win. I decide all points awarded.

Lisa: Ok, so you decide, huh, but you’re not able to decide other things.

Gabe: I can determine

Lisa: Inconsistent.

Gabe: I can determine things for other people, I

Lisa: I agree.

Gabe: Can’t determine things for myself.

Lisa: I’ve noticed that about you.

Gabe: I know it’s, it’s a quirk.

Lisa: That you’ve rebranded once again, reframed, as it were, as a virtue.

Gabe: I learned it from watching you. You are the most critical person I know, and you say that being critical allows you to spot problems before they become bigger problems,

Lisa: You’re welcome.

Gabe: Right? You are correct, but you realize that you have rebranded being just this incredibly negative, spiteful, hateful person as no, no, no, I can spot problems before they become bigger problems, which I can’t deny. But most of the time you’re just complaining about a movie that everybody else enjoyed while we’re all trying to eat our dinner.

Lisa: What I’m trying to say is you do it only in one direction, right? Like you look downwards of people who are not doing as well as you and say, well, look, I can’t be happy if I compare myself to those people. That’s not right. That’s morally wrong. Which, hey, you might have a point there. That’s not good. That’s not something that will enhance my happiness. OK, all fair points, all good. But you can look upwards at people who are doing arguably better than you and say, look, that’s the reason I’m unhappy. I can compare my happiness to those people and find it lacking. You consistently say I cannot use a downward measurement to do anything with my happiness. I can’t use that, but I can use an upward measurement. And that is definitive. That shows that I’m not happy and it shows that I’m completely reasonable in this belief. That does not make sense. You can’t have both. I think that you need to one, define happiness for yourself because you’ve never successfully done that.

Gabe: Define happiness for you, Lisa.

Lisa: I’ve got it.

Gabe: Ok, you claim that you’re happy.

Lisa: Yeah, I am happy.

Gabe: What is Lisa Kiner’s definition of happiness?

Lisa: Oh, don’t get me wrong, it’s a difficult thing to say. It’s kind of like that whole porn thing. I can’t really define it, but I know it when I see it, right? Yeah, I’m happy. Strangely, you don’t think I’m happy, but I am. I’m happy.

Gabe: Define it then. Tell me the definition of Lisa Kiner’s happiness.

Lisa: My mental illness is under excellent control. I haven’t been suicidal or hopeless in years, I admit it’s a low bar, but nonetheless it was one that I took a really long time to clear. So pretty excited about that. And overall, I’m mostly content and derive pleasure from things that I do in my day to day life.

Gabe: All you do is eat Rice Krispies and sleep.

Lisa: I find both of those things very pleasurable.

Gabe: So I just need more sleep and more Rice Krispies, and I, too, can lead the Lisa Kiner life?

Lisa: If those were the things that worked for you, yeah. You need to define the things that work for you in your own life, you get to define.

Gabe: But a lot of people feel that you’re wasting your life.

Lisa: So what? All of those habits that people who choose happiness have, that’s another one of them that you don’t have, you are defining yourself in comparison to others and you worry too much about what other people think.

Gabe: But you worry about what other people think to this day,

Lisa: Not like you do.

Gabe: You are still upset that you don’t have a master’s degree.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, I am.

Gabe: Well, but why?

Lisa: Obviously, I’m not upset enough to go get one.

Gabe: How will having a master’s degree help you sleep all day, podcast and eat Rice Krispies?

Lisa: Which is why I don’t have one.

Gabe: Then why are you upset that you don’t have one? You clearly don’t want it or need it.

Lisa: Well, that’s my point. You remember how one time we were at Weight Watchers and the lady had an example of, oh, I saw a classical musician and he was amazing. And I thought, oh, my God, I would do anything to be able to play the piano like that. I would do anything. Would you? Would you practice six hours a day for eight years? Her analogy was, oh, I would do anything to be thin. Would you? Well, then will you go to the gym every day and follow this weight loss plan? Yeah, this is the same thing. When I say, gee, I’d really like a master’s degree. Well, apparently, I don’t in fact, want one. If I wanted it that badly, I’d have one.

Gabe: But doesn’t it upset you that people that you’ve known a long time, the reason that a master’s degree is so important to Lisa is of course, because that’s all she wanted in high school. I believe you wanted a Ph.D.?

Lisa: I did.

Gabe: You wanted you wanted to go all the way and you just have a bachelor’s degree in physics. Just.

Lisa: I was very academically successful when I was younger, when I was in high school, etc. But yeah, mental illness has a way of derailing some of your academic plans at that age.

Gabe: But there’s a lot of friends and family that are disappointed in you for not

Lisa: Yes.

Gabe: Having achieved it, and they say things like, oh, you’re so smart, why are you just a podcaster?

Lisa: You had such potential,

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: You had so many possibilities before you.

Gabe: Doesn’t that bother you coming from people you love?

Lisa: Yeah, it’s super annoying, totally bothers me.

Gabe: Well, how come that doesn’t affect you?

Lisa: How much are you going to let stuff like that bother you?

Gabe: I, it bothers me a lot.

Lisa: Exactly like I just said, that’s one of the habits you’re not choosing. You worry too much about what other people are thinking about you. And don’t get me wrong, I understand, as we talked about in a previous episode, this happens to be a little bit self protective. In general, people like you. People like you, they get along with you. People in general don’t like me and don’t get along with me and find my personality to be abrasive. If I cared too much about what other people think, I would just have to curl up and die. There’d be no solution because most people, in fact, do not like me. To say to myself, hey, I don’t care about what other people think. Well, isn’t that convenient, since most people don’t really care for you? Yes. Yeah, it is. But nonetheless.

Gabe: I like you just fine, Lisa, but it’s self-protective for me to listen to others because there was a point in my life where I didn’t listen to others when they said things like, Gabe, get off the roof, Gabe, don’t spend all that money. Gabe, you can’t behave this way. Gabe, you’re treating us poorly. Gabe, your behavior is problematic. Gabe, you need to get help. And I would like to point out that somebody once said, Gabe, being suicidal is not normal. You need to go to a hospital. And I did not listen to them. I was tricked. I was taken there under false pretenses, which was for my own good. So, once I realized that, oh, my God, I should have been listening to these people all along, I’ve now listened to them more. When did they switch from saying reasonable things to stupid shit? Ich weiß es nicht. And how do I tell the difference?

Lisa: That’s a problem, that is an absolute problem, and once again, it’s harder for people with mental illness, but it’s not impossible. So, yes, it is harder for you because how do you find that line? You couldn’t trust your own thoughts before. So what, you’re supposed to trust them now? That doesn’t make sense. It is more difficult for you, but it is not impossible. And you understand that in other areas of your life. There are plenty of people that tell you about various things you should do. The obvious answer would be politics or religion, right? There are plenty of people like, no, no, no, you should vote this way, Gabe. And you have no problem with saying no, you are wrong. That is incorrect. I should not vote that way. You don’t have any problem with that. That’s like a proof of concept. How do you find that of no, no. I am confident in my own beliefs on this subject. How do you find that for this? In your own self-worth or your own level of happiness?

Gabe: Obviously, I understand what you’re saying, but let’s hang on to that political example that you gave for a moment. You know, Gabe and Lisa, we have pretty much the identical political leanings. I mean,

Lisa: Pretty close.

Gabe: So it would give me pause if one day you said Gabe X and I was like, no, Lisa, it’s Y. It’s always been Y. And you’re like, Yeah, but now it’s X. You’re saying that I should be 100 percent confident that I’m still right? No, that would give me great pause, great long. That would keep me up at night.

Lisa: So, what you’re saying is that there are people whose opinions you respect who if they said something counter to what you believe, you would have to stop and consider it.

Gabe: Like hard.

Lisa: If you respect my opinion so greatly or you respect your long-term therapist or your doctors, et cetera, they’re telling you the same stuff.

Gabe: Well,

Lisa: Why aren’t you listening to it?

Gabe: The role of a therapist or a doctor is not to tell you that you are happy. So, no, that is incorrect.

Lisa: No, no, no, no, no,

Gabe: But.

Lisa: That’s not what I’m saying. They are telling you if you do the following things, it will be beneficial to you.

Gabe: We’re not debating whether or not I have beneficial things in my life.

Lisa: No, we’re debating whether or not you do the habits of happy people and you don’t.

Gabe: Yes, I do.

Lisa: No, you don’t.

Gabe: Yes, I do. What habit of happy people do I not do? I don’t choose happiness? I don’t feel happy. I’m sorry I can’t choose it. And I think that’s ridiculous. It’s like choosing to have a headache or not to have a headache. You can’t choose it. It’s not a choice. That’s nonsense. Utter nonsense.

Lisa: But you, you could choose to avoid your migraine triggers; you could choose to go to the neurologist and get a better treatment plan.

Gabe: I do all those things, I absolutely do.

Lisa: Oh, but see, that’s just it, you don’t. And once again, marathon triathlon, you could always do more. The thing you do not do is stop worrying about what other people think. Stop comparing yourself to other people and stop living in the past. Those three things are what is keeping you from having the ability, or from just generally choosing, happiness. Is it harder for you than the average? For sure. Life screwed you. But so what?

Gabe: This is the happiest I’ve ever

Lisa: Yup.

Gabe: Been and this is also the most content that I’ve ever been. I recognize that I don’t feel like I should, but I do notice that when I reflect back, I do feel that I, we see this in our own marriage. When we got divorced, it was awful. We had a lot of problems. But now from this vantage point with our friendship, we actually have a lot of happy memories from the time that we were married and together, I think that our memories are constantly adjusting and shifting as new data becomes available. And that’s why the quote at the beginning, not the one you picked, not the crappy one from the president guy, but that’s why the quote really struck me so much when I saw it on Twitter, I feel like I’m constantly worrying about the next part of my life without realizing I’m right in the middle of what I used to look forward to.

Lisa: Yes, and when you showed it to me, I thought, oh, my God, this person is brilliant and apparently is following you around to write down quotes, because this encapsulates your entire life and your entire mindset and not for nothing, it’s hard to watch. It’s difficult to see this in you all the time. It’s depressing and it makes me sad for you, which is messing with my happiness, Gabe.

Gabe: I recognized myself in it, too, and actually, as you know, the first thing I thought about when I saw it is, oh my God, that’s what Lisa says about me. And I actually screenshot, Lisa is not on Twitter. I screenshot it and sent it to Lisa. But here’s the thing that I realized. That thing has been retweeted 36,400 times as of like four days ago. So I don’t even know what it’s up to now. And four days ago, it was liked 133,000 times. I am not alone. I am not the only person that thinks this way, feels this way or has this particular problem. And that’s what made me want to do a deep dive into it. Also, I love subjects where Lisa just gets to scream over and over again, you are so wrong. I still maintain that nobody is looking into happiness inflation, and it’s a real problem. But I also maintain, Lisa, you are correct. There is an element of control that I have and there is an element of control that the 133,000 people who liked this tweet have. We can steer our own destiny. I don’t know if I’m willing to say control it, but I think we can move the wheel back and forth and try to get a handle on it.

Lisa: I also like subjects where I can tell you repeatedly that you’re wrong. We should definitely pick more of those subjects in the future, that will make us all happy. But your main problem is that you’ve never actually defined or determined what happiness does mean to you.

Gabe: In the meantime, I will take solace in the fact that I am right in the middle of what I used to look forward to, which means retroactively, past Gabe would be very happy.

Lisa: And you are certainly not alone.

Gabe: All right, ladies and gentlemen, this is the point of the show where I plead with you, if you have any subjects that you want to hear Gabe and Lisa debate, argue about or cover, hit us up at Show@PsychCentral.com and tell us about it. Wherever you downloaded this podcast, please subscribe. Also, please rate, rank and review it and use your words and tell people why they should download and listen as well. And hey everybody, I wrote the book, Mental Illness Is an Asshole: And Other Observations. It’s three hundred and eighty pages of awesome. You can get it on Amazon, of course, but you can also go over to gabehoward.com and buy it from there and I will sign it. I’ll also throw in a bunch of free stuff, including stickers of the Not Crazy podcast.

Lisa: Remember, there’s always an outtake after the credits, and we’ll see you next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person? Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details.

Related articles