Podcast: Reviewing Netflix’s Ratched

Are the lobotomies and hydrotherapy treatments depicted on the show realistic? Have Doctors Really Performed Lobotomies On Children? Get involved and take a deeper look at this popular miniseries.

(Transcript available below)

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Guest information for the podcast episode "Rachel Star Withers – Reviewing Ratched"

Rachel Star Withers is an entertainer, speaker, video producer and schizophrenic. She has appeared on TV shows such as MTV's "Ridiculousness", "TruTV", "America's Got Talent" and is the host of "Madness with Rachel Star" on Amazon Prime. She grew up with monsters, heard people in the walls and urged to harm herself.

Rachel creates videos that document her schizophrenia, ways to manage others like her, and let them know that they are not alone and can still live amazing lives. she wrote Lil Broken Star: Understanding Schizophrenia for Children and a tool for schizophrenics, Seeing in the dark: hallucination and delusion journal.

Fun fact: she wrestled alligators.

About the not crazy podcast hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and public speaker living with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Insanity is an asshole and other observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast Not Crazy. She is the recipient of the National Alliance on Mental Illness' Above and Beyond award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has partnered with Gabe for over a decade to advocate mental health. She lives in Columbus, Ohio with her husband. enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, chooses the best and sends the other 11 back.

Computer generated transcript for Rachel Star Withers – Review of Ratched” episode

Editor's note:: Please note that this transcript was computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammatical errors. Many thanks.

Lisa: Y.You're listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband with bipolar disorder. Together, we created the Mental Health Podcast for People Who Hate Mental Health Podcasts.

Gift: Welcome everyone to the Not Crazy Podcast, I'm your host, Gabe Howard, and I'm with Lisa Kiner as always.

Lisa: Hello everyone, today's quote is from Bell Hooks. Films not only reflect the culture of a particular time, they create it too.

Gift: I've always loved that quote, but I wonder, did she say anything about streaming Netflix?

Lisa: I think it will be accepted.

Gift: Is it accepted? I mean are Do you remember when we were younger that there was a really big line between movies?

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Gift: And watch TV? And you're right, it's all kind of blurry. But I suppose for Ms. Hook's purposes she means the things that we consume in popular media such as movies, either reflecting culture or creating culture.

Lisa: Or both.

Gift: Oh. One of the coolest things about hosting multiple podcasts on the Psych Central Network is that I get to work with a lot of really cool people. And the other day when I was working with Rachel Star, who is their host Within schizophrenia, a very, very cool podcast, I recommend you check it out. She said to me, Hey Gabe, did you see the new Netflix miniseries? Ratchet? And I said: no what? What's this? And she said it's the show on Netflix that is a sequel to One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. And I was like, oh my god. You mean nurse Ratchethow the baddest nurse ever from pop culture? And she likes, yes, it is that she goes, I liked it. You should check it out. And I thought all right, that's weird because we tend to watch them and this movie is very, very nasty and vicious. But from a mental health advocacy standpoint, we tend to look at this just as an example of what not to do. But you know, I found it in the back of my mind and we went on and worked a few days later, my dear co-host Lisa, who we all know and love because we're on her show right now, said, Hey, Gabe, did you seen the Netflix miniseries and the prequel? Ratchet? And I said you know Rachel told me about it. And Lisa said I hate it. It's awful. It's been the mental health advocacy for thousands of years. It's nasty. I can't believe they did that. And I thought, OK, those are two very extreme views. So I thought, hmm, what can I do with this information? What can I do with two people with different opinions? I can put them on a podcast. Rachel, welcome to the show.

Rachel: Hey, what's up, Gabe and Lisa?

Lisa: Hey, it's good to have you here.

Gift: Well, I'm very, very excited about this because I didn't see the miniseries in full disclosure, I didn't see it. I am the moderator and no doubt a sensitive observer.

Rachel: I'm not sure what your waiting for, I mean, it's like it came out a bit before.

Lisa: Yes, you also knew this show was coming

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: It's not that you weren't prepared.

Gift: Rachel, you live with schizophrenia like we should have some real reasons now, for possible reasons, that you may have seen it through different lenses, you Rachel, when you live with schizophrenia.

Rachel: I do. It lives in the background.

Gift: It's like having a roommate who can't be kicked out, no matter how hard you try the eviction courts, they won't hear the motion.

Rachel: Yeah she's cool. It's all right.

Gift: It's good. You got used to them

Rachel: Yes,

Lisa: She is hardly at home.

Rachel: Yes.

Gift: So, like I said, Rachel is on the schizophrenic side. And then Lisa has her advocacy, just like I mean, it's like a blob, isn't it? It's not a straight line at all. Lisa stood up for the caregiver. She stood up for family members. She saved my life. She lives with depression. She has provided certified peer support in the state of Ohio. So, honestly, Lisa comes from 800 different backgrounds, which is very different from Rachel's specific endorsement and lived experience. And the fact that they are so different is why I thought this was going to be an interesting conversation. For your information only, spoilers exist, you have been warned.

Lisa: We don't want you to stop listening to watch it, but maybe.

Gift: Rachel, I want to ask you the first question since you brought this up. You really think it was a reasonable representation of mental illness. What year did this show take place?

Rachel: I think it's set in the 40s. I don't think it's a reasonable representation of mental illness. I think it's from the treatments this time. I think this is the most realistic I've ever seen in terms of lobotomies. You actually do hydrotherapy in it; I've never really seen what I know. I have it in movies or things and how intense certain things are. And they actually show two different types of lobotomies in detail. A little like you've never seen them before. I mean I read about it. I've seen graphs. But the show, which I wouldn't say, can get kind of bloody in places. It's a pretty realistic thing. What they show, how they dig into the brain by hand, the ice ax, as if everything were pretty. And he talks through it like it's very impressive, especially if I was like a psychology student. Yes. To see, oh, wow, that's fine. That's exactly what happened there.

Gift: I have a follow-up question on this, but Lisa, I want your impression, did you think it was a realistic representation of medical treatments in the 1940s?

Lisa: Unfortunately, probably, yes, it's probably actually a realistic representation, but it's been set up in the way it shouldn't be. I half thought it was a hallucination for the first few episodes. So it was set up as if the characters didn't think it was realistic. The characters are playing so I just found it confusing.

Gift: Ok, aside from the confusion, I remember when the movie Saving Private Ryan came out in the 90s and people said this was the most realistic cinematic portrayal of the war. You know, they had people who got shot, people who talked to their friends and buddies, who had their heads blown off while talking to them, and just kept going. And they felt that this did an excellent job showing the horror show what it's like to storm the beach in Normandy. And now and I've never been to war so I can't compare, just I suppose Rachel, you've never had a lobotomy so you can't compare. But I think Rachel and please correct me if I'm wrong. Your point was, look, if you had a lobotomy in your 40s and you stood in the corner of the room, it looked like this.

Rachel: Yes and Ratchet is made by the same people who make American Horror Story. So you have to understand that you still have some kind of cinematic horror. What i liked Ratchet is that there are no ghost things. The creepy characters in it aren't the people with mental illness. It's the people who like what happens, there is no such thing as bad character. In the end you see the human side of everyone. One thing I liked about the lobotomies, the people they did it on, they weren't just zombies afterwards. One of them was a child, which I didn't realize. I thought there was no way they lobotomy a child. And then I did some research. I thought, oh wow, no lobotomies were done mostly on women and some children. So that was a pretty normal thing. But yes, you would talk afterwards. You could still have a conversation. Some people, some of them, were brain dead, but I've never seen that before. Usually we see that the one has flown over the cuckoo's situation where he ends up being like dead.

Gift: Right, he just likes to lie there.

Rachel: You never really see that someone is okay with it and getting on with life.

Gift: Lisa, did you get the same impression?

Lisa: After you say something about this, Rachel, I think I will think a little differently. I struggled to see it as a realistic representation of treatments because I felt it was such an unrealistic representation of the staff and characters. And like you said, the bad people, the bad guys, aren't the patients. By the way, always a nice twist in a film. But yeah, when you look at it in isolation as that part, it has that particular realism or even horror. Yes, OK, it doesn't matter. I take back my previous objection and agree with what Rachel is now saying.

Gift: Just like that,

Lisa: Well the other thing.

Gift: Rachel, Rachel, I tried to do this for 25 years just to have a brief argument that Lisa was like okay, Gabe, I was suddenly enlightened about your mindset. The argument is over. Let's have a nice day What have you done? Rachel is the Lisa whisperer.

Lisa: The one part that I really liked was, like you said, where they later showed these people working and some of them weren't, but some of them were. And there is also this wide variety of people that they perform lobotomies on

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: From the people who were clearly very, very sick to the people who like you, you know.

Rachel: Yes, one was a lesbian.

Lisa: Well, one was a lesbian.

Rachel: But that's representative of the time it was considered a mental disorder.

Lisa: Yeah, and then of course you got completely pushed by a family that didn't like who you were. So there is also the idea that people with mental illnesses are not in control of their own lives because they are so overwhelmed by their families or the state as a whole.

Rachel: Yeah, none of them as he portrayed them was like these crazy people, like attacking, biting,

Lisa: Law.

Rachel: They drool in the corner. All were, I'm not saying normal, but yes, you could easily say, OK, this person is having a problem or two. But I would never think we'll fix it like that.

Lisa: Yes, they don't have that serious problem, they need brain surgery.

Rachel: Right, yes, that would never cross your mind.

Gift: It sounds like you both agree that the bad guys weren't the insane ones. That's how we usually get it in these things, right? It's just that the patients are the bad guys. But then who was the bad guy?

Rachel: Well,

Lisa: Well it's an antihero.

Rachel: Yes, and I would say everyone was good and bad. The doctor in it, good and bad. And what I really appreciate about it is that there have been some intense scenes with him throughout the season where he just wants to help, you know, and you just think, OK, well, I was just watching someone put an ice ax through them Stuck your nose in the eyeball, but that was what he thought was helpful back then. And some of the other things they show you are watching obviously couldn't help anyone. You torment them. But the way he speaks, I want to make a difference. I want to help. And it's exactly that kind of distorted view that you kind of feel like, oh man, you know, this guy feels for these people, but he's destroying them too. So many of the characters were like that. You would have humanity, but at the same time you would turn around and do something you just can't believe.

Lisa: He was wrong, but sincere.

Rachel: Yeah, misguided, none of that was hahaha. . . Let's see what happens when an ice cream picks through a person's eyeball.

Lisa: Yes, he didn't just torture for no reason.

Gift: But no, no, wait a minute, I realize I haven't seen it, I apologize, but didn't he like sewing a dead patient's arms to a living patient after cutting off the living patient's arms?

Rachel: You see now, Gabe, you didn't see it so you have a hard time making that argument. The scene you are referring to is pretty much his being poisoned, but it depicts something they really did where they gave LSD to patients before therapy sessions. And that's something I think never really got featured in movies or TV shows other than documentaries where they gave LSD to various people with mental disorders and thought that would make them do it, I didn't. I don't know if I can speak better in therapy.

Gift: But they cut off their arms.

Rachel: Yes that's true.

Lisa: Well, but that'll come back.

Rachel: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Correct?

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: That's something people do again.

Gift: Nobody answered the poor, the poor.

Rachel: I don't want to ruin the show for them, it's like a huge spoiler. I mean,

Gift: Well.

Lisa: I found that as a scene very unsettling.

Rachel: Yes, it is not easy to show, I would say has a lot

Lisa: No.

Rachel: From trigger warnings. It actually is

Lisa: Yes.

Rachel: Was asked by Netflix to have a similar opening part because the first scene of the season is incredibly disturbing and bloody.

Lisa: Yes, it is very graphic and very disturbing. But that was also, I thought, a good part because it shows that there are those horror elements in things that really happened.

Rachel: Yeah, that was one of my favorite things, it's pretty much the realistic horror of it. Just watching is intense and you like it, but then you realize, oh wow, those were actually procedures that were done on people, you know, and there is no ghost walking around. There is no person trying to attack you from the corners.

Gift: Did anyone on this show actually have real mental illness? You talked about the woman who is lesbian etc?

Lisa: Well, the whole point is that mental illness is culturally constructed. So here are these people who have lesbianism, for example, which we don't consider a mental illness, but which was treated as such in 1947. That's part of the show's appeal, this idea that mental illness is arbitrary and some of these people are just victims of society's greater perception.

Rachel: Because if you go ahead and look up the show it says serial killer, because yes, the very first scene is a serial killer. What I really appreciated about the show, and it doesn't spoil anything, is that at some point someone pretends to be a schizophrenic, pretty much to say that's why they killed all these people. And the doctor calls them out. And there is a really great monologue where the doctor calls and just says, OK, you're showing all these different signs, but you like it perfectly when you play. And I can tell you that you play They pretend to be you, which is why you did all these terrible things. And I really like that on the show. They never really represented schizophrenia consistently, or at least I noticed they did. But I really love his monologue because I think it's important because so many people think, oh god, serial killers, they must have been schizophrenic.

Gift: And it also suggests a doctor can catch it, right? There are these kind of misunderstandings in society that you just have to pretend and the doctor will just be handcuffed and give you the diagnosis.

Lisa: At first we think, oh, he's just bad, he's just a serial killer, he's just a bad person, but of course we have more backstory later, we have more explanations. And if we get back to your case that the insane are not the bad guys or the creepy or the bad guys, it turns out that he wasn't the bad guy all along. And those are spoilers. And that's just your own problem, you should go see the show. So he's not the bad guy or the bad guy. But everyone looks at him as if he must be violent for no reason because he is mentally ill after all. And what other explanation could there possibly be? He couldn't possibly have a valid reason for this violence, or even a reason for this violence. It just has to be because he's crazy. There can't really be a backstory.

Rachel: One thing I'm going to kick out that I loved wasn't the main character, Nurse Ratched, but there was a separate nurse who is very much considered a bad guy. But you are definitely on the line of understanding because she is strictly following orders. When you tell her to do something, she does it. I agree. And it really comes out as torture. And later she makes a comment in which someone refuses to do the treatments and she says that is the difference between being a real nurse. You cannot have compassion when you want to help someone. Sometimes it hurts them to help them get there. And I just thought that was really important. You know, when you think about hospital situations and things that need to happen, things that you need to do. And I thought, yeah, that's a really good point. As a nurse, it's not my job to question what the doctor is saying. I mean, nobody wants to have an operation, and if you think back to that time, they wouldn't have been trained to do anything else. Your job is to do what the doctor says and he will try to help you. And she too.

Gift: But it really sounds like you're trying to get Sister Ratched not to be angry, she is angry. she is

Rachel: No no

Lisa: No no.

Rachel: And I don't think she was evil in the original film, either.

Gift: Society agrees that the bitch is bad

Rachel: No,

Gift: "Really?"

Rachel: No she is not.

Lisa: She wasn't evil in the original movie, don't you think?

Rachel: No,

Gift: She was bad as hell.

Rachel: No, I saw the film right before the show, not on purpose. I didn't know this was coming out. Little did I know Netflix was pushing One Flow over the cuckoo's nest.

Gift: She just accidentally saw One fly over the cuckoo's nest.

Rachel: I did.

Gift: You know how to do it. You mind your own business, a legendary horror movie comes up.

Lisa: Have you seen it before

Rachel: Yes, but like so long ago.

Lisa: Because I would think that would be very, very triggering, honestly, I mean why

Rachel: No because of it

Lisa: We all know One Flow Over the Cuckoo’s Nest is about why you do this to yourself?

Rachel: But it's because I'm watching him, and especially when you see it today, you really don't like her. I forgot this actor's name, but you really don't like his character. At one point. I mean, he raped 15 year old girls

Lisa: Jack Nicholson.

Rachel: Yes, that's like a major plot point. One of the reasons the nurse is so protective and there were other things that

Lisa: Oh,

Rachel: He has.

Lisa: Good point that you know that's left out

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: Is not it?

Gift: Yes,

Lisa: It is glossed over

Gift: We see him as a victim.

Lisa: Oh.

Rachel: Law. And you say that this woman does all these mean things and you watch too, like, no, she has a very specific schedule for these people. And he tries to actively interfere with the treatment of these people, as it is always about him.

Gift: Or he's trying to allow them to live their lives in this culturally constructed thing that they don't, I mean, these men are not even allowed to talk about women without

Rachel: No,

Gift: Mixed up.

Rachel: I'll say he wants you to live his life, that's what he thinks. He wants to see the baseball game, so everyone has to see it because that's what men do. We watch baseball games. We hang out together. We're going to drink. Yes. And you have these people who are there for many serious reasons and probably shouldn't leave the nerve department for a day to sail around the ocean and get wasted.

Gift: Oh.

Lisa: But in One Flow Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, she’s not really a person, you know, she’s the representation of institutional apathy or institutional violence.

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: She shouldn't actually be human. She's just an archetype.

Rachel: And I think it's like obeying orders too. You know, nothing she does in it is illegal, is bad. She literally just follows orders to a T. Anyone in the film who doesn't follow orders ends up breaking everything. There is like the night watchman that they end up having this big party with and so on. And you think, well, that's because he lets her celebrate. Again, people in bad psychiatric situations don't have to party, you know, but it's easy to watch and be, man, they're so mean they don't have a good time. It is so, yes, they are really on drugs too. And I think I'll watch the show RatchetPersonally, I thought they would go out of their way to show lobotomies like Reshow. Because I know this electroconvulsive therapy, lobotomies were so poorly represented in the film. And that's like a terrible stigma on ECT. There's no ECT on the Netflix show, but it's all along the same lines. I just really like that they showed the characters with lobotomies much better. Like you're not just that drooling lump. It wasn't just torture. Like giving that person a lobotomy because I can't handle that attitude.

Lisa: Which is the way that psychiatric

Rachel: Yes,

Lisa: Treatments are often portrayed in films

Rachel: Law.

Lisa: It is specifically performed as a torture device. There is no thought that it could

Rachel: Correct,

Lisa: Be beneficial or a treatment.

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: And you have a good point if you look at yourself, oh, we're going to cut into your flesh and reread your organs. Oh is that a horror movie? No, this is a hospital because that is exactly what medicine does because like you said it has to hurt to help. That is exactly what these people thought. Of course, I would argue that it is like a whole. Oh, I just followed orders. I don't know that you are exempt from moral responsibility, but that's an interesting point.

Rachel: No, I agree, but I also think, you know, then the time, you know, you have someone, the nurses, I mean literally, what medical knowledge do they have? You're still in the dark age of so much and you have a lot of people who are, hey, let's see what happens when I do that.

Lisa: Well, and in the end, even the nurse says, hey, here come all these new treatments. Wow, I just can't believe it

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: From the things we used to do. I just look back and think oh my gosh

Rachel: Yes / Yes.

Lisa: As you said, she tries to do the best she can or to do the best she thinks she can. People often speak of a flight over the cuckoo's nest as a stigmatizing ECT that many people believe has legitimate medicinal value and is still done today, etc.

Rachel: I had it.

Lisa: I didn't know if you wanted to talk about it.

Rachel: Oh, that's good because I keep emphasizing that so many people are against ECT because it causes so many problems. And for me it was a lifesaver.

Lisa: "Really?"

Rachel: It's not for everyone, but I wouldn't be here if I hadn't had it. And it's always up to date, like I wouldn't have a problem having it back, even though it's not a first line of defense. But yes, in the original film, it's pretty much shown as a torture mechanism. And even the show Stranger Things, I think two or three seasons ago, is a huge plot point where they literally use it as torture and to erase people's memories, not as, OK, let's help that person. That we're trying to help that person with depression. It's oh man We just have to figure out how to clear the brain and oh, you didn't mean that? Let's turn the electricity on. You don't just like that. I mean, I'm sure it happened, but that wasn't the point. To try just to torture people.

Gift: I mean anything can be used for torture, right?

Rachel: Right, yes.

Gift: I mean, you know, if your leg is cut off, if it's a burn, or if it has a carnivorous bacterium, it will ruin the rest of the body, which is actually medically necessary for some people. We saw it in trauma surgery. But you can also cut someone's leg off to torment what we've seen in many horror films. I think the difference is that society understands the difference between medically necessary leg removal and torture leg removal, while society does not understand medically necessary ECT and torture ECT. They just think it doesn't matter.

Rachel: Mm hmm.

Gift: So this is like a social problem, isn't it?

Rachel: Yeah, and I really felt it was going in the same direction, but with the lobotomies, I've never seen them like that, OK, this will really help you guys.

Lisa: Well, but ECT

Gift: OK.

Lisa: Is that done today and, you know, health workers etc, what about lobotomies? Is this something we should bring back or investigate more, or is this something we should just throw back in the trash of history?

Rachel: We still do it even though it's done completely differently and no longer called a lobotomy, but they still have psycho-surgery. There is actually an operation similar to epilepsy, in which it separates part of the lining between the brain and basically one of many people with very severe epilepsy who somehow prevent seizures. So we still do things like that. They are no longer as archaic as they used to be. Nobody takes out an ice ax. Nobody gets a hand drill and grinds into it. You know we have lasers. We had things like that. Und du würdest sie heute nicht als oh Gott betrachten, ich kann nicht glauben, dass sie dir das angetan haben. Es ist oh, wow. Das scheint eine wirklich beängstigende Operation zu sein. Aber du wirst gut sein.

Lisa: Das ist eine sehr interessante Sichtweise, denn ja, nicht alle Operationen sind so.

Rachel: Ich meine, du denkst darüber nach, deine Augen lasern zu lassen

Lisa: Yes.

Rachel: Chirurgie für Ihre Augäpfel. Mit solchen Lasern in deinen Augapfel zu schneiden, klingt schrecklich. So bläst mein Gehirn. How you do that? Und du denkst, wenn sie Messer herausziehen und es tun würden, könntest du sagen, whoa, warte eine Minute, das ist ein bisschen intensiver, aber es ist genau das Gleiche. Ich habe keine Ahnung. Aber

Gabe: Es ist

Rachel: Yes.

Gabe: Faszinierend, denn als ich mich einer Augenlaseroperation unterzog, sagte ich allen, ich sei wie der böse Bösewicht, der in der Höhle im Berg lebt, schoss mir mit einem Laser in die Augen und ich war so stark, dass ich nur meine eigenen korrigierte Vision und nahm sie dann herunter. Ich denke, die Leute kommen auf die Idee, dass es beängstigend sein kann, mit einem Laser in die Augen geschossen zu werden. Und es war das Zeug von James Bond-Filmen und anderen Filmen, in denen böse Menschen in Inselgebirgshöfen lebten. Aber sie hielten die Ärzte nicht für böse, weil sie etwas weiter schauten. Denken Sie, dass eines der Dinge, die diese Show vielleicht gut darstellt, die Idee ist, dass wir etwas genauer untersuchen müssen, warum wir diese Dinge tun, anstatt nur auf das zu achten, was getan wird?

Rachel: Absolut. Gehen Sie zurück zu Sie müssen Geld mit Shows verdienen, es muss einen Grund geben, warum die Leute zuschauen, oder dann sitzen Sie mit dem Dokumentarfilm herum und es ist nicht so interessant. Wissen Sie, es gibt ein gutes und ein schlechtes, wenn es um Medienporträts geht. Es gibt nur so viel, was Sie tun können, um die Leute dazu zu bringen, es zu sehen und trotzdem freundlich zu allen zu sein.

Lisa: Nun, es ist die gleiche Art und Weise, wie alle Krankenhaus- oder Arztshows so dramatisch und übertrieben sind und / oder Polizei- oder Krimis, niemand verhält sich tatsächlich so, Gott sei Dank. Aber sonst ist es langweilig

Rachel: So viel Papierkram, du würdest zusehen, wie sie sich nur ausfüllen, weißt du, oh Gott, wir sind diesem Typen nachgelaufen. Ich musste hier 10 Seiten ausfüllen, bis ich sie eingegeben habe. Ich sagte, ich kann keine Überstunden machen. Eigentlich bin ich nicht in der Sache, Leute.

Gabe: Und wenn du dem Kerl nachläufst, ist das natürlich alles, du bist nur einem Kerl nachgelaufen. Es fliegen keine Kugeln. Es sind keine Waffen raus. Es ist nur eine langweilige Verfolgungsjagd, bei der Sie eine Reihe von Fragen beantworten, eine Reihe von Unterlagen ausfüllen und dann, wissen Sie, Book 'em, Danno, ich denke, sie haben die Buchung in der Vergangenheit vielleicht aufregend gemacht 80er sowieso. Aber Sie haben Recht, die Polizeiarbeit ist letztendlich langweilig, aber sie zeigt sie im Fernsehen, da diese sehr hohen Einsätze, lebensbedrohlich, Kugeln fliegen, Militär brauchen. In Wirklichkeit ist es nur eine Person, die herumläuft.

Lisa: Well, but this is one of the reasons why we have these problems, because we all look at the popular perception of it in media and think, oh, look, police officers are under constant threat. It makes sense that they need a tank.

Gabe: Ok, well, are we looking at people with mental illness as a constant threat, so they need a lobotomy?

Lisa: Maybe. Isn’t that the way they’re always portrayed on TV as violent and scary?

Gabe: That is true, but aren’t they portrayed on Ratched as violent and scary?

Lisa: No.

Gabe: Are they portrayed as, like, kind? Do you want them to come over for coffee with your kids?

Lisa: Yes,

Rachel: Well, yeah, some you’re watching,

Lisa: Yeah,

Rachel: You’re like, why is this person there?

Lisa: And the answer is because they have no power in society and they’re trapped.

Rachel: Yeah, one is ADHD, and, you know, they’re acting like it’s so crazy that this boy’s, you know, easily distracted. We got to do a lobotomy and you’re just like, well, no, I really think that’s a

Lisa: Oh, this is so terrible, this is so serious. Yes.

Rachel: That’s what it seems like, a jump that the 12-year-old has distracted thoughts and he’s not even like crawling up the walls as they’re talking. He’s acting like a 12-year-old.

Lisa: And the point being that he has no power or agency, he’s trapped

Rachel: Mm-Hmm.

Lisa: by his parents and what they decide for him.

Rachel: Yeah, what they decide is uncontrollable.

Lisa: Law. And who gets to define such a thing?

Gabe: We’ll continue this discussion in a minute and we’ll be right back.

Gabe: We’re back with the host of the podcast Inside Schizophrenia, Rachel Star, discussing the Netflix series Ratched.

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Lisa: I was actually thinking about what you said earlier, about there’s no horror, there’s no supernatural element. But I kept waiting for there to be.

Rachel: Yeah, they definitely play it up.

Lisa: Right, I’m waiting for there to be ghosts or demons

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: Or, oh, is she possessed? What is it? Because isn’t that the way asylums work? I mean, when you’re on TV, all asylums are haunted. That’s what asylums are. Another statement about the popular perception of these things that, oh, obviously, there must be demons involved.

Rachel: Yeah, there has to be some dead patient ghosts that are like hanging out.

Lisa: Right, exactly.

Rachel: I mean, although I got to say, though, that if you watch the show, it is visually stunning.

Lisa: Oh, yeah, that was the best part.

Rachel: Oh, it’s so colorful and stunning, and then you’re like, this hospital is gigantic and there’s like, what, five patients?

Lisa: Yes.

Rachel: That was my bag. It’s like, how is this place open? I’m very confused. I mean, they’re talking about shutting it down. I’m like, well, clearly you guys need to. Literally five patients.

Lisa: I know. You’re maintaining all of this? How many beds do you have?

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: There’s only like four people here.

Rachel: You got like a whole wine cellar that you keep one guy in, like, why do we have a wine cellar in this hospital that apparently stretches for miles? Watching the show visually is just stunning. The way they do all the colors and

Lisa: Yeah,

Rachel: The sets is just incredible.

Lisa: The first couple of episodes, I really thought, wow, I could watch this just for the clothes.

Rachel: Yes, even if they’re covered in blood.

Lisa: Well, yeah, yeah, well, it wasn’t a perfect system, but

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: It just yes, the cinematography was amazing. And again, like I said, because I’m expecting some supernatural of into it, I thought, oh, that’s why the colors are so saturated,

Rachel: Yes, and almost like a dreamlike state, like you were saying earlier, you weren’t sure yet? No, it does come off very dreamlike.

Lisa: I was watching this with my husband, and I kept saying to him, I’m telling you, I’m telling you this is going to be a dream. This is a hallucination. This isn’t real. And again, spoiler alert. That is not how it went. And that is a change because, of course, obviously, if you’re having a show about psychiatric patients, it must be because it’s not real.

Rachel: As I said, this is made by the same people who do American Horror Story. They also did Scream Queens, they did Nip/Tuck. I mean, so many different shows that have some very gory parts to them, but especially American Horror Story. And that’s definitely a huge trigger type show. Each season is set differently. And it’s funny because the second season takes place in an insane asylum. And that’s my favorite. And everyone’s always shocked because they would think Rachel seems like that would be the one you definitely don’t like and you would have a problem with. But I really think it’s a great representation minus all the supernatural, because they have a ton of demons and aliens and ghosts and everything you can imagine. But I think it’s a great representation because insane asylums used to be run pretty much by churches. That was who it was. You’re going to be looked over by priests and nuns. So how are they going to treat you?

Gabe: How are they going? I mean, I think that’s an excellent point, how?

Rachel: Yeah, God, so you’re going to have a lot more demon possessions, you’re going to have a lot more starving people things because they didn’t have medications, like how are they supposed to treat you? And they’re very much overrun with people just dropping off every ailment you can imagine. And the family just abandoning them.

Gabe: My wife back talks. Here, fix her. My wife won’t clean, I mean, and these are

Rachel: Yes.

Gabe: These are true stories, right? I mean, just husbands who would get tired of their wives would drop them off. This is excellent because I never thought about the idea that in early mental illness advocacy or intervention, it was largely driven by the church. And we had medical doctors who we assume have some sort of science background with religious leaders who we assume are going completely from, you know, biblical teachings or, you know, prayer, faith, etc. and those two get together. And I guess lobotomy is the only result? Is this portrayed in the show, this idea that religion is driving a lot of this?

Rachel: Not in the new Ratched show I was just referencing yet, that American Horror Story, that that line very much, I think in its 20s or 1910s or something, but it’s even set before that Ratched is in the 40s, I think.

Gabe: So in a way,

Rachel: Ratched, not ratchet.

Gabe: It’s Ratched, yeah,

Rachel: Sorry, I keep saying ratchet. When I first saw the name, I was not expecting this to be the show I

Gabe: Yeah, that word means something different now,

Rachel: Yes.

Gabe: But it sounds like what you’re saying, based on their body of work, that their thinking has evolved or at least their portrayal has evolved because they used to portray mental illness as supernatural, then they portrayed mental illness as, you know, like Freddy Krueger horror movie. And then they portrayed it from the lens of we have to, you know, pray the mental illness away. And now they’re portraying it from early medical intervention and using science. So if you look at their entire body of work, they’re giving you a history lesson with, like, colorful costumes and probably a cool background soundtrack.

Rachel: So cool.

Lisa: The soundtrack was also very good.

Rachel: Yes.

Gabe: Is that what you’re saying, though, I mean, is that.

Rachel: I think it’s an evolution. I could easily see this being like part two of that American Horror Story season, the kind involving the asylum.

Lisa: I have to watch American Horror Story then.

Rachel: Oh, you’ve never seen it? Oh, my.

Gabe: And the American Horror Story that you’re talking about, is season 2, right?

Rachel: Season 2, yes, each season is a stand-alone story.

Gabe: Also, a series I’ve never watched, however, I did watch Nip/Tuck because I was dating this woman at the time who loved Nip/Tuck and there was no DVR. So when it came on, we had to drop everything and watch this thing. She loved it. Crazy woman. I forget her name.

Lisa: Oh, I loved Nip/Tuck. I don’t remember the name of that actor, but he was so hot.

Gabe: You said that constantly, it was not annoying at all.

Rachel: The blond one or the brown haired one? Aaron Eckhart, I think was the blond, that I liked.

Lisa: No, no, the dark haired one, Christian Troy, he was the hot one.

Rachel: Oh, Christina, yeah.

Gabe: You would say he’s hot.

Rachel: That’s who my mom liked.

Lisa: Yeah, right.

Gabe: And I would say, why are you saying that? And you’re like, Oh, it’s OK, he’s a doctor. And I would say he’s fake. And you’re like, look at that. Look at his shirt is off again. He interviewed the babysitter with no shirt on. Who does this?

Lisa: Well, he would later have an affair with that babysitter.

Gabe: Yeah, he would later have an affair with this.

Lisa: Hmm.

Gabe: I have tried to emulate this behavior. Didn’t work.

Rachel: I mean, if you got it, flaunt it. Why am I wearing like six layers if I if I got this sweet pecs?

Lisa: Exactly, you know how hard he works on those?

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: He’s just going to hide those?

Rachel: Yeah,

Lisa: No, I don’t think so. That’s just dumb.

Rachel: It’s like driving a flashy car.

Lisa: Rachel’s so wise.

Gabe: But Nip/Tuck, though, was about plastic surgeons, right, it had it had no mental illness involved at all. Recht. Nice trip down memory lane, but not mental illness related.

Rachel: Yes,

Lisa: Another thing I thought was interesting about Ratched was many of the patients were there voluntarily. And we’ve all been trained to think of mental hospitals or asylums or psychiatric hospitals as being these incredibly scary, horrible places. Why would you ever go there voluntarily? They are places to be avoided at all costs, but here are these people who are so desperate that they’ve shown up. So even though they’re scared, they’re very, very sick and desperate to do whatever it takes.

Rachel: And a lot of it was very family oriented, the family is the ones being like, this person needs help. And the person sitting there like I mean, I guess, you know, you kind of like want to question, like, if I was in that position, you know, and my husband is dropping me off there because I talk too much or I’m interested in women and that seems really bizarre. Or I’m dropping my child off because he’s the only kid that won’t sit still in class and everyone’s telling me he’s weird. Where’s the line on things? So, it just makes you think like I feel like a lot of the characters, you could be like, oh, I know someone like that.

Lisa: There are a couple of characters that were clearly just suffering so much and they had such faith.

Rachel: Yes, they were desperate.

Lisa: They were desperate. They tried everything else. They were hopeful that this would be the answer. They tried all these other things. This is going to be the one. This is going to be the thing. Science is going to save us.

Rachel: Yeah, I don’t think there’s any involuntary treatment being like they signed up for everything they did, no one was like, you have to have this lobotomy. They pretty much knew what they were signing up for.

Lisa: Exactly.

Rachel: They might have regretted afterwards, but they definitely went in knowing what was going to happen.

Lisa: We couldn’t exactly call it informed consent because they didn’t understand the consequences necessarily, but they did know the specifics of the procedure and they consented to this because they were desperate. Especially the first two people who got lobotomies, because one of them is clearly supposed to be coded as bipolar and you just felt so much sympathy for them. She’s so desperate, she’ll do whatever it takes.

Rachel: One thing that’s had a lot of blowback is the character Charlotte, that actress was incredible. I thought she like blew away all of her scenes. But the way they show dissociative identity disorder is the big blowback the by. That’s all incorrect. And I got to be honest, I did some research and I could find every reference that they did. I could find there being a basis for it. So, I don’t know. I know that’s a that’s something that’s going through saying that they did that wrong, that her character is just a horrible representation. But that’s I kind of think what’s so interesting is you’re watching it and you’re not really sure. Is she real? What’s happening here? Is she faking? Is she not faking? It’s just very confusing to watch her.

Lisa: So dissociative identity disorder previously called multiple personality disorder, which I am not a big believer in, but the thing I did like about the character was that she comes to this through trauma.

Rachel: Yes, she very much so wants to be helped. I mean, this isn’t someone who’s like a crazy serial killer running around killing people and, you know, we have to stop her. This was a woman who is clearly sad and upset and she’s like, I’m losing my life. Please help me. Please do whatever you have to do to help me. And regardless of what the disorder is, she’s a powerful character that she wants her life back. She’s not trying to hurt anybody. She just wants

Lisa: Right,

Rachel: To be normal again.

Gabe: So what is the takeaway? I mean, obviously, it’s entertainment. I think we can all understand that the goal of this was entertainment. But is there a silver lining that people watching this will understand the plight of people living with mental illness better? Rachel, what are your thoughts on that?

Rachel: Right after I watched it, because I had never seen portrayals of lobotomies that way, I immediately started Googling lobotomies because I thought the whole scene with them doing it on kids, I’m like, there’s no way that was a thing. There’s no way they did it on someone because they thought they were lesbian. There’s no way they did it because this person was depressed. And it blew my mind what I read and pretty much how common it was that they got up to the point in history where they were doing lobotomies just quickly in the office. It was great. You didn’t have to go to a hospital. The doctor psychiatrist could do it right there. And you’re out. Like they were trying to make that a thing, like a little McDonald’s kind of situation. Just go and get out. You’re good. Nobody has to do anything except, you know, just pop the ice, pick through your idea when could do it. And I just this was things I didn’t realize about history. The other was the hydrotherapy. I, you know, maybe seen a picture or two in a book before, but I’d never actually seen it portrayed. And that was just kind of crazy. And I was like, I have to Google this because there’s no way they would scald people. Oh, no, they did OK. Yeah, no, that was apparently a normal thing. All right. And for all types of ailments, not just mental illness. So, for me, I learned so much that was different than I’m used to seeing it portrayed. More realistic as far as the not the serial killing. But you know what I mean, not the horror type part that of the show.

Gabe: Lisa, what are your thoughts?

Lisa: I would agree that it was portrayed in a more realistic manner, and I also had never seen hydrotherapy represented, but because it is so surreal and with this otherworldly type thing. So I don’t know that the average viewer is going to say to themselves, oh, my, that’s how it really was. I think they might just think it’s part of the fictional concept of the show. So, hey, people. Yes.

Gabe: It’s all live, right? Your mileage may vary, I guess.

Rachel: Mm hmm.

Lisa: Well, but if you think about it, that’s the creepy part of it, that you’re thinking, oh, no, this is just for TV, but then you get more information. You’re like, oh, not just for TV basis in real life. Oh, ick.

Rachel: Which is one reason I’ve always loved American Horror Story is that every season they base so much stuff off stuff that happened in real life, which was actually horrific things that happened, people that actually existed, but they interweave it, you know, into their stories and stuff. Going back to asylum, one reason that’s my favorite as you watch it and you think there’s no way this is real and there’s a very powerful episode where the reporter sneaks in and does a report about it all, how twisted everything is. And the fact is that really happened, except it was a children’s hospital. And that’s how Geraldo Rivera is so famous. He snuck in a camera. If you ever watch this video, it’s ten times worse than anything that American Horror Story could have even touched on. You know, and it’s just like these places exist. These treatments exist. Real life is scarier sometimes than the ghost, than an alien ship or whatever,

Gabe: An alien ship?  What are you watching?

Rachel: American Horror Story has done everything. OK, they hit it all.

Gabe: That’s awesome.

Rachel: If it could remotely be scary, you got like, anything they’re going to go after it.

Gabe: Anything goes, it’s covered. Rachel, we love hanging out with you. Tell us for a quick minute before Lisa and I talk behind your back what is Inside Schizophrenia and why do you host it?

Rachel: If you haven’t it checked out Inside Schizophrenia, it’s not as fun as this show, I got to be honest, Gabe.

Gabe: It’s more educational.

Lisa: I’ve actually really enjoyed it.

Rachel: We don’t have as much fun on that show.

Gabe: Way, way to sell it.

Rachel: It’s really boring.

Lisa: That’s making me want to go watch it right now.

Gabe: Tune in, it sucks, I hate hosting it. What’re you doing? It does not have the same feel, it’s an educational show.

Rachel: Yes, it is a more educational show. I do have schizophrenia, so we talk very in depth about that. But we also bring on a lot of experts, doctors, people who specialize in areas. I love doing the show because to me it’s so interesting. And I know someone out there is like edutainment. That’s right. Some

Lisa: Yes.

Rachel: Great entertainment if you want to hear from, like, some really cool different people that you’re would not normally when you Google mental health news. I’d say we’re not like the typical.

Gabe: And you can find that over on PsychCentral.com/IS or Inside Schizophrenia on your favorite podcast player. Obviously, the obligatory plug for Inside Schizophrenia hosted on the Psych Central Podcast Network, but what does Rachel Star do? Talk about yourself.

Rachel: Well, one thing I really like to talk about is since COVID happened, lots of kids at home, lots of people don’t have access to mental health and kids always weigh heavy on my heart. So at the beginning of all this, I made a comic book line, a mental health comic book line for kids. The first three issues deal with schizophrenia, depression and ADHD, and they are completely free. So they’re free on Apple Books. I think even the adults would like them. And pretty much each one’s a different little kid who becomes a superhero dealing with their mental disorder. So check it out.

Lisa: Yeah, they’re adorable. They’re free over on Apple books. The first one is called The Adventures of the Fearless Star and the main character is called Lil’ Star.

Rachel: Yes, yes, it’s actually the whole concept is it’s me talking to a younger version of myself, what I wish would have happened as a kid.

Gabe: Very cool. Well, I hope everybody checks that out. Once again, Rachel Star, everyone.

Rachel: Thank you so much for having me.

Lisa: Thank you for being here, Rachel.

Gabe: Ok, Lisa. That did not go exactly how I thought it was going to go, because when we discussed doing this episode, you said, I’m really worried about disagreeing with Rachel and I don’t want to piss her off. Yeah, you pretty much agreed with every single thing she said which honestly surprised even me. Did you have a change of heart?

Lisa: No, not really, I do agree with everything she said, it’s because when you first discussed let’s do this episode, you said Rachel watched Ratched and says that it’s an amazing fictional portrayal of schizophrenia. And I thought, what are you talking about? I don’t think they’re even are any schizophrenics in that. I don’t I don’t understand.

Gabe: I need to defend myself, I believe what I said is that Rachel said that it was an excellent portrayal of the treatments of schizophrenia, which

Lisa: That’s not what you said.

Gabe: I believe that’s what I said.

Lisa: You said it’s an excellent portrayal of schizophrenia and I thought, what is she talking about? I’m going to have to review this. I don’t think there even are any schizophrenics in this. So I don’t know if I didn’t understand what you said or you didn’t understand what she said or it’s like a telephone lost in translation thing. But no, the thing that you said is completely not what we ended up talking about. I maintain that I was right with the original version of what was happening here. But no, not the actual version.

Gabe: I’m glad that you fought so hard to make sure that our listeners knew that you didn’t agree with me.

Lisa: Well, excuse me for taking you at your word and thinking you knew what you were talking about in the planning stages.

Gabe: Lisa, I know we’ve dropped a lot of spoilers here for our listeners, but if any of them are considering watching it, do you recommend them? Like if you were, if you got to be Siskel and Ebert right now, how many stars would you give it? And do you recommend that they tune in for any reason?

Lisa: Probably not. There’s plenty of stuff on Netflix that’s better. It was vaguely entertaining. I liked the clothes, as we’ve already discussed. I liked the clothes, liked the soundtracks, I liked the set. I like that actress, although I don’t think this was one of her better works. But overall, yeah, I just didn’t really like it that much. And it had so many twists. You were like, what? What? And in terms of, oh, I want to watch this so I can have a better understanding of mental illness. Only if you went in already knowing a whole lot about mental illness.

Gabe: All right, well, I am so glad that I saved 10 hours by just listening to you and Rachel discuss it, and now I can claim knowledge of something that I did not do and all of you can as well. That is the Not Crazy promise.

Lisa: Again, it had some good parts, it wasn’t completely worthless, there are certainly a lot of worse things on Netflix that you could watch, but there’s a lot of way better stuff too. Especially, like you said, to give up that many hours.

Gabe: It’s also important to remember that Lisa is a middle aged woman, so it is certainly possible that if you trend younger, you might just think this thing is bad ass. It could be Lisa’s advanced age that is causing her not to like the show.

Lisa: How do you know it’s not the reverse? Maybe if you trend older, you’re going to love this show, maybe I’m too young for the show. How do you know?

Gabe: Because of Rachel. Rachel liked it and she’s younger.

Lisa: Oh.

Gabe: Thank you, everybody, for listening to this week’s Not Crazy podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole, which you can buy on Amazon. If you head over to gabehoward.com, though, and buy it there, you’ll pay less money. I’ll sign it. And I will include free stickers from the podcast and, well, also from me personally.

Lisa: Don’t forget the outtake after the credits and we’ll see you all next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person? Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details.

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